Nprime, agree totally with your "consumer" comments.
But I think the real point here is not whether you or I actually need anything extra... The point is whether CWA can commercially survive by relying on its existing catalog of products.
Maybe they can, but I think that would require much more aggressive marketing.
Think for example, of how effective it would be if CWA were to give a 1:1 screenshot of every free synth & effect ? I think we'd all be surprised.
Does anyone even know how many free synths there are ? Or the total number of modular patches ?
I know similar things have been said before, but if CWA never acts on any of these basic self-promotional aspects, how can they expect to generate excitement and outside interest ?
CW future?
I doubt that this will be self-promotional at all - it might even turn into the opposite.
CWA is a small company with a fairly 'expensive' product line. They just don't adress the '99 bucks EMU 404 guy' (for good reasons), and they would never succeed in this domain.
Imho it's much more important to build up a 'professional brand' image, which includes reliablity and ergonomics in the first place, but also some leading edge technology to separate from the average.
I'm aware that the latter points suffer heavy from budget issues and need a lot of improvement.
Unfortunately it's not all up to CWA alone - latest mobo and XP issues challenge a company of that size to their limits.
Professionals don't care too much about prices as long as it fits the balance.
An investment needs to put you in an advantage - you get a job faster done, you're better than your competitor etc.
CWA cannot guarantee a proper workflow with the current system of vendor specific PCI stuff.
In that context they'd be better off with one single interface (the frequently mentioned external box), basically containing the same components, but with some more horsepower. I'm not talging TigerSharcs but the (affordable) regular 21065 successors.
Last but not least it's the lack of Mac support that stands painfully in between applications in professional environments.
That effect may have been totally underestimated...
my 2 cents, Tom
CWA is a small company with a fairly 'expensive' product line. They just don't adress the '99 bucks EMU 404 guy' (for good reasons), and they would never succeed in this domain.
Imho it's much more important to build up a 'professional brand' image, which includes reliablity and ergonomics in the first place, but also some leading edge technology to separate from the average.
I'm aware that the latter points suffer heavy from budget issues and need a lot of improvement.
Unfortunately it's not all up to CWA alone - latest mobo and XP issues challenge a company of that size to their limits.
Professionals don't care too much about prices as long as it fits the balance.
An investment needs to put you in an advantage - you get a job faster done, you're better than your competitor etc.
CWA cannot guarantee a proper workflow with the current system of vendor specific PCI stuff.
In that context they'd be better off with one single interface (the frequently mentioned external box), basically containing the same components, but with some more horsepower. I'm not talging TigerSharcs but the (affordable) regular 21065 successors.
Last but not least it's the lack of Mac support that stands painfully in between applications in professional environments.
That effect may have been totally underestimated...
my 2 cents, Tom
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Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
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Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
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Well, don't forget that you can't even get two cards in the silver G4s, who's to say that you could in a G5 (that also assuming you can got over the different voltage and different slot problem). Quite a bit of work for one platform, whereas one hardware solution like Firewire for PC and Mac would cut costs, and allow cross-grading to different platforms, whereas now we'd need PCI, PCI-Express and PCI-X cards.the g5 issue is an issue but not as much as osx itself.
Unless there's a hardware solution OSX development is a pointless waste of time, CWA would be better just focussing on PC if there's no new hardware development.
Mr A
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2004-11-14 20:03 ]</font>
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kensuguro
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here's my 2 cents. (or yens) I still tend to agree that cw needs to have something out, be it scope or whatever B2B type products they're working on. Not because we scope users want a new products, but more in terms of market presence. CW had very weak market presence before Noah, Noah got alot of spotlight, but it failed. Noah may have been successful in CW's vision, who knows, but from the general public it's probably just one of those that "just didn't make it". That's not a good mark to leave.
Basically, market presence is going to get CW new customers for all their product lines, and so more water flows their way. That's good for all of us I think.
It's tough. CW is a hardware+software solution and they have to make these two spread simultaneously. It doesn't have to be the same route tho. They can even make a Creative labs style high end gamer card (low budget) with minimal DSP capability, and use that channel to distribute the technology. Might ruin the branding, but sure would gain good market presence. Slap together some cream 'n butter effects for games + maybe 1 good synth, and I think it'll do okay. Low budget musos would love it. Remember Creative stuff always had a "musical" facet to it? Kind of a whacky idea, but the point is, they can use alternative channels to distribute their technology first, without the user being too aware of it.
How about taking the luna and slapping it into a firewire box? And then market it as a firewire audio IO with DSP capabilities as a bonus. I think people tend to look for firewire IO boxes more than they search for DSP cards.
Bottom line is, I think CW needs to distribute. Or atleast promote. What happened to promotion? I don't even have the slightest idea of what goes on in that department..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2004-11-14 21:12 ]</font>
Basically, market presence is going to get CW new customers for all their product lines, and so more water flows their way. That's good for all of us I think.
It's tough. CW is a hardware+software solution and they have to make these two spread simultaneously. It doesn't have to be the same route tho. They can even make a Creative labs style high end gamer card (low budget) with minimal DSP capability, and use that channel to distribute the technology. Might ruin the branding, but sure would gain good market presence. Slap together some cream 'n butter effects for games + maybe 1 good synth, and I think it'll do okay. Low budget musos would love it. Remember Creative stuff always had a "musical" facet to it? Kind of a whacky idea, but the point is, they can use alternative channels to distribute their technology first, without the user being too aware of it.
How about taking the luna and slapping it into a firewire box? And then market it as a firewire audio IO with DSP capabilities as a bonus. I think people tend to look for firewire IO boxes more than they search for DSP cards.
Bottom line is, I think CW needs to distribute. Or atleast promote. What happened to promotion? I don't even have the slightest idea of what goes on in that department..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2004-11-14 21:12 ]</font>
What's the transfer rate of a firewire interface comapred to PCI?
Maybe this is a stupid question, but could it be possible to build some sort of Magma box, with external power suply, that could hold a couple of scope cards in PCI slots, and conect it to a computer trough firewire?
Of coures, I don't know if there's a possible way of translation beetwen PCI and firewire, or if there's such a product right now, but that could be a good solution to compatibility in the future.
Martin
Maybe this is a stupid question, but could it be possible to build some sort of Magma box, with external power suply, that could hold a couple of scope cards in PCI slots, and conect it to a computer trough firewire?
Of coures, I don't know if there's a possible way of translation beetwen PCI and firewire, or if there's such a product right now, but that could be a good solution to compatibility in the future.
Martin
I don't see the situation so dire...as has been mentioned before the end user is a small portion of Creamware's overall business, for example the Fairlight system in recent mention is only one of their other solutions. Frank Hund has often mentioned the broadcast sector as being a major focus for their other products.
I think that if the other endeavors they pursue are successful then that will spill over to us in the best way possible. For example if they do need more powerful dsp chips to enhance their broadcast or fairlight solutions then I can see them eventually retooling that into a lower end model to suit the same market that our Scope cards currently serve. Also I tend to prefer that (assuming we're not the major source of their income) that Creamware NOT try to be 'everything' and pursue expanding the product line, consumer or otherwise.
Obviously in 2 years time the PCI bus will be gone entirely and something will have to replace this, so that seems like a fair time to consider something new. Unless Apple does move from Pci-X to Pci-Express a firewire box does seem the most 'futureproof'. Yet if no OsX port ever emerges it is also possible that it becomes a windows only solution.
As it stands now our Scope systems are rather complex and not quite like anything else on the market. This makes them interesting and yet a niche product. I think that Creamware's niche product is great personally, as apparently do many of you. I don't see why this should be drastically changed. Just updated when the time comes.
I think that if the other endeavors they pursue are successful then that will spill over to us in the best way possible. For example if they do need more powerful dsp chips to enhance their broadcast or fairlight solutions then I can see them eventually retooling that into a lower end model to suit the same market that our Scope cards currently serve. Also I tend to prefer that (assuming we're not the major source of their income) that Creamware NOT try to be 'everything' and pursue expanding the product line, consumer or otherwise.
Obviously in 2 years time the PCI bus will be gone entirely and something will have to replace this, so that seems like a fair time to consider something new. Unless Apple does move from Pci-X to Pci-Express a firewire box does seem the most 'futureproof'. Yet if no OsX port ever emerges it is also possible that it becomes a windows only solution.
As it stands now our Scope systems are rather complex and not quite like anything else on the market. This makes them interesting and yet a niche product. I think that Creamware's niche product is great personally, as apparently do many of you. I don't see why this should be drastically changed. Just updated when the time comes.
astroman: I totally agree with your opinion concerning the sheer quantity of cw devices and your thoughts about the demands on workflow. By the way I thought to have seen some third generation shark priced at somewhat around 50 Euros. Anyone?
nprime: Scope does also all I need to do -almost. I would need to use 4 of these wonderfull reverbs of warp69. I need to use Makie Control or Houston. And I need autosave.
>>...the obsession with new gear being released yearly...
With CW let´s say "in 8 years time".
I still like the games of the commodore C64 and it´s sound
Check SidAmp!
nprime: Scope does also all I need to do -almost. I would need to use 4 of these wonderfull reverbs of warp69. I need to use Makie Control or Houston. And I need autosave.
>>...the obsession with new gear being released yearly...
With CW let´s say "in 8 years time".
I still like the games of the commodore C64 and it´s sound
Check SidAmp!saw this rumor over at the nuendo forum, uad talking about using shark.
The rumor:
The support guy from UA (i saw him everyday) told me that sometime next year the UAD version 2 is coming and they are gonna open up the platform for third party developers (only UAD-2) based on the or the shark chips or something else ... they haven't decided yet.
probably just a rumor but i just thought i let you know,
The rumor:
The support guy from UA (i saw him everyday) told me that sometime next year the UAD version 2 is coming and they are gonna open up the platform for third party developers (only UAD-2) based on the or the shark chips or something else ... they haven't decided yet.
probably just a rumor but i just thought i let you know,
This message will selfdestruct in 20 seconds.
I don't really care if CW puts out new synths or fancy devices at the moment.
If it just chips away at the platform software piece by piece that's fine by me.
As long as they come up with a solution regarding the vanishing PCI without me having to buy totally new Scope and Pulsar products other than some sort of breakout box, I'm happier than a pig in shit.
This is a studio on a card(s) that I can integrate very nicely with my sequencer and VST plug-ins and produce totally professional quality recordings. The synths and devices are of such professional quality that I turn to VST mainly for sample-based instruments such as samplers, sound modules, or sample-based synths and additives etc..
I don't feel that there is much missing from a software point of view in my setup.
My only anxiety is how CW deals with the PCI going bye bye. They nail that without it costing me thousands of dollars and I'm very content.
If it just chips away at the platform software piece by piece that's fine by me.
As long as they come up with a solution regarding the vanishing PCI without me having to buy totally new Scope and Pulsar products other than some sort of breakout box, I'm happier than a pig in shit.
This is a studio on a card(s) that I can integrate very nicely with my sequencer and VST plug-ins and produce totally professional quality recordings. The synths and devices are of such professional quality that I turn to VST mainly for sample-based instruments such as samplers, sound modules, or sample-based synths and additives etc..
I don't feel that there is much missing from a software point of view in my setup.
My only anxiety is how CW deals with the PCI going bye bye. They nail that without it costing me thousands of dollars and I'm very content.
Caleb
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
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powerpulsarian
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Isn't a Magma external Cardbus chassis a solution? Or is the Cardbus slot in laptops going away also? (Of course, it doesn't help if you are using a desktop. I wonder if Magma will update there PCI extension chassis to include Firewire or USB options - or new standards on desktops as they come out. If they do, it may be a way to keep using PCI cards with a system that doesn't include PCI slots.)On 2004-11-21 00:10, caleb wrote:
As long as they come up with a solution regarding the vanishing PCI without me having to buy totally new Scope and Pulsar products other than some sort of breakout box, I'm happier than a pig in shit.
Most people you talk to will tell you that it will be a long time before PCI is phased out completely. The motherboard manufacturers are beginning to introduce other standards, but they will also include PCI on the boards for quite a while into the future. (Just like when PCI replaced ISA slots - ISA was included for a good amount of time on motherboards that also had PCI slots.)
In other words, it's not something to worry about for the near future.
Although, and external Creamware box still would be nice (even though a Magma chassis works very well with Cardbus on a laptop in my experience, a Firewire or USB 2.0 solution would allow more compatibility with both laptops and desktops).
In other words, it's not something to worry about for the near future.
Although, and external Creamware box still would be nice (even though a Magma chassis works very well with Cardbus on a laptop in my experience, a Firewire or USB 2.0 solution would allow more compatibility with both laptops and desktops).
There are Magma expansion systems available with PCI to PCI/PCI-X interface, meaning you can connect a Magma to a G4 as well as a G5 or any compatible PC. I believe a Magma chassis with FireWire 800 connection could be done, but the available bandwidth is much lower than 32-bit/33MHz PCI. The 32-bit/33MHz PCI spec tops out at a theoretical 132 MB/sec transfer rate and FireWire 800 only at about 80 MB/sec, but asually not more than somewhere between 60 and 70 MB/sec. That's just half of the bandwidth of 32-bit/33MHz PCI. You would need two separate FireWire 800 busses to be able to get enough bandwidth.
Leon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dodge77 on 2004-11-22 12:34 ]</font>
Leon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dodge77 on 2004-11-22 12:34 ]</font>
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powerpulsarian
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- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:00 pm
I asked the question to Magma - and here is there response:
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Expansion is our core business. As technology progresses, we plan on moving with that technology. Although PCI is now an older technology, others are moving in to replace it, but PCI is no where close to being phased out. As the dominant technology for the past decade, PCI will be around for some time. And PCI-X and PCI-E are both based on PCI technology, which further secures it’s place as the father of these upcoming bus architectures. USB and FireWire, as much slower busses even than PCI, will not likely be utilized for PCI expansion purposes.
Hopefully that answers your questions. Let me know if there is anything else I can do for you.
Regards,
Rich
Rich Williams
Account Executive
MAGMA
http://www.magma.com
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: powerpulsarian on 2004-11-22 21:34 ]</font>
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Expansion is our core business. As technology progresses, we plan on moving with that technology. Although PCI is now an older technology, others are moving in to replace it, but PCI is no where close to being phased out. As the dominant technology for the past decade, PCI will be around for some time. And PCI-X and PCI-E are both based on PCI technology, which further secures it’s place as the father of these upcoming bus architectures. USB and FireWire, as much slower busses even than PCI, will not likely be utilized for PCI expansion purposes.
Hopefully that answers your questions. Let me know if there is anything else I can do for you.
Regards,
Rich
Rich Williams
Account Executive
MAGMA
http://www.magma.com
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: powerpulsarian on 2004-11-22 21:34 ]</font>
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hubird