My Scope Project arrived... first impressions.

doof · Post by **doof** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:28 pm

Greetings all,

My new Scope Project Plus card arrived yesterday and I thought I would share my initial impressions. For reference, I'm running a 3ghz winXP system with 1 gig of ram.

The first thing I tried was Minimax. I was a little frustrated at first because the Scope 4 platform itself seems to have a few bugs to work out. For instance, I was unable to draw connection with the normal cusor mode, but when I switched off the normal cursor mode everything worked as it should (including the plug pictures shown in the manual). Correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't look like creamware does minor incremental updates for bug fixes, improvements, etc... which is a shame.

There were also quite a few crashes when playing around in the Scope environment, but since I turned off XTC mode everything is behaving itself nicely.

The biggest impression, and the real purpose of this post concerns the huge difference of sound quality between sample rates. Minimax, Vectron, UKnow, Mod3, to name a few simply sound far richer at 96kHZ. I was really taken back by how noticeable the difference is, moreso than the numerous VSTi's I've worked with in the past. 44.1 sounds very muted and muddy in comparison. Unfortunately the DSP cost for 96khz brings my 6-dsp card to its knees and I fear will only be suitable for monophonic playing. This is not much of problem for now since my prime motivation in going Creamware was Mod3 + Flexor, which seems to have a reasonable dsp cost (depending on the patch complexity, of course). On the other hand, I'm a bit disappointed that Creamware doesn't have an 88.2khz rate option, which would minimize artificating when downsampling to the standard 44.1. Anyone know why this was left out?

On a positive note, Mod3 sounds AMAZING.

Just patching the Raw Osc to the output, the difference between Creamware and the CLavia modulars was instantly apparent (I've owned the original and G2 btw). The sound is rich and vibrant, which is just what I was looking for. The Clavia oscillators were just too wimpy and clinical. The mod3 OScs have a powerful sound that is very similar to my Doepfer A-110s.
The filters seem to be quite nice too.

Flexor will be added shortly and is sure to turn this card into a real swiss army knife.

Anyway, thanks for reading a new user's ramblings. I hope to have more to share in the future..

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:59 pm

First of all, welcome

Can't say I've noticed any bugs in SFP4. Give yourself some time to iron things out and learn your way around. Creamware doesn't update the SFP software itself mostly because it doesn't need it (some devices could need a tweak or two tho =P.) It's pretty stable software. Crashable, like everything else that moves, but it's been the most stable software on my machine since I've been using it (started with 2.0 I think.) The last update was mostly esthetics following the re-organization of the company.

Yeah 96khz will sound better. As far as I know, Minimax runs at 96khz internally and is downsampled (if necessary I guess.) It's too bad about 88.2khz too, but SFP will support that sampling rate if it's in slave mode and has something to sync to (like an A16U.)

Also, you should take a look at Voxengo r8brain, as far as I know it's free, and it'll convert between most sample rates. Try a raw 44.1khz recording vs 96khz converted to 44.1khz and see which one you like the best (haven't tried it myself, I'm happy at 44.1khz for the moment, when I have a nice multi-terabyte RAID array maybe I'll look into 96khz

.)

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:31 pm

On 2004-12-18 15:28, doof wrote:
...On the other hand, I'm a bit disappointed that Creamware doesn't have an 88.2khz rate option, which would minimize artificating when downsampling to the standard 44.1. ...

this is a common misunderstanding due to how humans divide numbers - there is absolutely no differennce in accuracy of up or downsampling any rate if it's done appropriately.

Which of course doesn't include the (in)famous (and not uncommon) trick of doubling the number of samples (plus some math mod) and play them back at twice the rate...

The same process is also applied vice versa - don't ask me about the math details, but the effect is similiar to jitter artifacts.

There are indeed synths that sound different in 96k with extended highs which is subjectively sensed as an improvement - but it could as well be a prejudice.
This is one of the most favourite discussions of all times - personally I tend to judge sound sources from their overall 'quality' and for me some lo-fi is almost a must to complete the spectrum.

My Kawai K4 is in a local music store for sale, but I'm seriously consider to take it back. It's a very simple machine, but the sound of certain patches seems almost impossible to be programmed even with such a powerhorse as SFP.
Not to mention an original DX7 versus NI's FM7 (which I consider one of their best products).
The latter may be more accurate mathematically but for my taste it's already sounding clinical.
Nevertheless it will be great instrument if it fits in the mix - and that's the most important aspect over all

Anyway, one should keep in mind that a record is usually played back on consumer gear, possibly even mp3ed - so it's worth checking if a 96k improvement survives the processing chain.

cheers and congrats for successful first steps, Tom

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:40 pm

Yes it's a shame and a pain in the ass that CWA doesn't make minor but much needed bugfixes ( beware on the Modular - see forum )
Also a ( late ) huge fan of 96 KHz !! late because of the crush by two of the voices so for * each * preset of every synth , I have to weight between 2 much more voices and X times better at 96 Khz.
If you like Mod III naked, Flexor will drop your jaw big time !!! but it's more hungry than common modules ...
Also in the must have first check Solaris 3 at http://www.zargmusic.com/ and the Wavelenth bundle at http://www.track0.com/wavelength/devices.html really low prices grins for synths lovers !

For Sample Rate Conversion, Symbiote mentioned r8brain free which is great, r8brain pro FULL is 120 $ ( VAT not included !!! ) LIGHT version around 50 $, I asked the developper, he's not gonna lower the prices but he will develop the products since he has sold enough of them.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:51 pm

I didn't hear too much difference between 44.1 and 96 in MiniMax and Pro-One, as they're optimized to run at 44.1 anyway. The synth that REALLY shone at 96 was Vectron. Minimal aliasing and crystal-clear wavetables. Too bad it takes up too much DSP and is hard to integrate into 44.1 projects.

The standard cursor option works the same functionally as the non-standard cursor. Between making connections, the cursor turns into an hourglass. It does not crash; it's simply the cursor used. You can continue to make connections as normal. However, it's better to work with the CreamWare cursors anyway.

Glad to see you're having fun,

Shayne

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:13 pm

hey doof, and welcome

i guess u allready browsed the modular patches area and tested some of the patches (if not, DO IT!

)
just a quick mention of some patches to look for (and this is TOTALLY subjective recommandations) :

- Everything by megerov, hes done some nice synths based on your NordModular, and some own stuff as well. most small patches but very effective and inspirational.

- MorpheusV2 by stw http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 5&forum=15
There's also a few more presets for it int the presets section, check them out

Crumar DS-2 v1.2 by erminardi http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=15&3

this is just a couple of patches that displays the strength of mod 3.
i would mention heaps of other patches if u also had flexor, there are an insane amount of good mod3/flexor patches

have fun with your tweaking!

Oh, and get flexor as soon as possible, its a whole other world

doof · Post by **doof** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:54 am

Got my reg code for Flexor yesterday.. my jaw has officially dropped.

Now to add Bowen's wonderful CEM OSCs and Filters...

Thanks for all your replies and recommendations. Going back to the 96khz issue, my impression is that there is definitely more going on in the higher harmonic spectrum at the higher sample rates. This would account for why Vectron sounds far richer at the higher rate. Then again, sometimes absolute clarity isn't desirable, especially in vintage emulations.. I wouldn't want a Mini that sounds as clean as a surgical scalpel- sometimes a smattering of slight muddiness is just what the doctor ordered.