This thread is goin nuts! All i have to say is this:
-Unwarranted foreign imperialism IS happening.
-The US IS becoming a police state (if you live there, you SHOULD know what I mean... if you don't, watch the news as Baseball players are being badgered 'per Patriot Act' for hurting the youth of america by using steroids.
So, regardless of what is said 'happened', the obvious results are the same; A government overstepping their boundaries, begging for revolution. It's almost comical how historically governments try to remove rights from the people that established it, only to be faced with overthrow and re-establishment.
LAUGH OUT LOUD! I'm buying a gun. (and I hate guns)
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The day against war
Funny, yesterday I looked at the legendary movie "The Running Man" (Schwarzenegger). It is maybe more real than the makers of the film thought that time (1987).On 2005-03-29 07:48, 8-Bit wrote:
-The US IS becoming a police state
Nowaday's reality TV... US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.
Hilarious... I love that movie. THe book is waaaaaaaaay better tho, the book is completely different,though. Yeh, things going on in the US so far have only been little-noticeable implications of what might be coming. Regardless, when the mass is opressed, the mass fights back. It's been going on since, well, forever really. I have a strong feeling that 'freedom loving people' won't stand for the lies fed them by the man who calls himself 'freedom loving'. Lol.On 2005-03-29 11:02, spoimala wrote:Funny, yesterday I looked at the legendary movie "The Running Man" (Schwarzenegger). It is maybe more real than the makers of the film thought that time (1987).On 2005-03-29 07:48, 8-Bit wrote:
-The US IS becoming a police state
Nowaday's reality TV... US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.
Just as simply as the impossibility to convince someone on a forum of your opinion is the same impossibility that any over-reaching leadership would resign without revolt. I'd almost bet on it happening before I die.
8
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next to nothing
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ask the common US citizen what happened to Kosovo after "the serb butchers" were driven out. they stopped watching after the tv stopped transmitting. same goes for "aid organisations", people getting money from citizens all over the world to help people.
after the cameras left, so did they. not all, but most.
after the cameras left, so did they. not all, but most.
if those almost 50% citizens that 'lost' the previous election would simply refuse to consume, how long could the government stand this ?On 2005-03-29 15:54, 8-Bit wrote:
...is the same impossibility that any over-reaching leadership would resign without revolt. I'd almost bet on it happening before I die.
Would they force you shopping by pointing a gun at your head ?
cheers, Tom
Are you talking about Earth or some other planet ? The US is not within cooee of a police state - you're more free to say what you like there than in just about any country on the planet. You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored.On 2005-03-29 11:02, spoimala wrote:
US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.
'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with. But there are hundreds of freely available 'news' services ready to offer an alternate viewpoint - many (if not most) based in the US. Police state ?
The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy. Their primary concern is audience share and money. Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates - just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability.
People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment.
For a trivial invesment you have a potential audience of billions.
How does that fit with this 'police state' idea ?
I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner.
Yes, since the world is being freed, all Human Rights organisations start lying cos they don't have reason for existance soon.
Spirit, get real.
edit:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392519.stm
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0m on 2005-03-30 10:17 ]</font>
Spirit, get real.
edit:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4310847.stm“Last year, we had a congregation of human rights defenders sponsored by me and the UN High Commission on Human Rights who have found their lives extraordinarily blighted in the last two-and-a-half years because oppressive regimes, quite often supported by the U.S. Government, are now branding the human rights heroes as terrorists. And this is the kind of thing that has caused their lives to be completely changed in a deleterious way.”
Former President and Nobel Peace Prize Winner Jimmy Carter in an interview with PBS’s Jim Lehrer on July 27, 2004.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392519.stm
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0m on 2005-03-30 10:17 ]</font>
The movie.Are you talking about Earth or some other planet ?
Okay, it was written a bit muddled. But becoming reality day by day.
I wouldn't be surprised if soon China isn't the only country limiting access to Z...
At0m, indeed, who really needs Amnesty and Greenpeace anymore...
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I hope these differences of our opinions in this thread won't harm much our Pulsar-brotherhood.
At0m, I think the existence of 'Human Rights' organisations in fact is further evidence of the level of freedom. In a police state human rights organisations aren't tolerated.
But also, those organisations are just groupings of people like any other. They are not composed of divinely-inspired saints, nor above a little politics themselves... But of course it's important they are there and active - another part of the 'free world'.
But also, those organisations are just groupings of people like any other. They are not composed of divinely-inspired saints, nor above a little politics themselves... But of course it's important they are there and active - another part of the 'free world'.
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hubird
At least there is some hope, as this quote from the above link suggest:
The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA’s criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee’s On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics.
The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA’s criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee’s On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics.
interesting, shocking, but sadly not surprising ... the CIA (amongst other intelligence agencies) have been nuts for years.
Chomsky is good on all these matters.
Also a couple of documentaries you might be interested in:
'The Power of Nightmares' (3 parts) charting the rise of neo-conservativism and fundamentalist islam
and
'The Revolution Will Not be Televised' - a documentary about the attempted (we take it american-backed) military coup in Venezuela in 2001.
Last time I looked both of these were on 'UKNova' if you are bit-torrenters.
Chomsky is good on all these matters.
Also a couple of documentaries you might be interested in:
'The Power of Nightmares' (3 parts) charting the rise of neo-conservativism and fundamentalist islam
and
'The Revolution Will Not be Televised' - a documentary about the attempted (we take it american-backed) military coup in Venezuela in 2001.
Last time I looked both of these were on 'UKNova' if you are bit-torrenters.
Quote:
"You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored."
Than why does Patriot Act I allow the same email monitoring ?
The implications of all those extra rules in that Patriot Act comes down to the fact that they can scan your email too Spirit!
Whitout you beeing properly informed.
Quote:
'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with'
No no , what they tell is not the problem here, it's what most outlets won't show and tell you.
One by one all those fireman who worked there on ground 0 are sick ill or dead already!
Isn't that big news? Those men worked there asses off you know. And your not even interested why that is ??
Quote:
"The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy."
You are very sure of this?
Quote:
"Their primary concern is audience share and money."
Hey , for once we agree.
Quote:
"Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates"
what would happen when that socio-economic framework turned into a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Wouldn't that imply that the outlets would function like it has always function within a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Quote:
"just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability."
Most of our countries aren't the real thread here.
Quote:
"People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment."
Let's keep it that way!!!
Quote:
"I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner."
Still you won't believe a single bit of evidence shown here? Or even suspect something?
cheers
Casper
"You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored."
Than why does Patriot Act I allow the same email monitoring ?
The implications of all those extra rules in that Patriot Act comes down to the fact that they can scan your email too Spirit!
Whitout you beeing properly informed.
Quote:
'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with'
No no , what they tell is not the problem here, it's what most outlets won't show and tell you.
One by one all those fireman who worked there on ground 0 are sick ill or dead already!
Isn't that big news? Those men worked there asses off you know. And your not even interested why that is ??
Quote:
"The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy."
You are very sure of this?
Quote:
"Their primary concern is audience share and money."
Hey , for once we agree.
Quote:
"Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates"
what would happen when that socio-economic framework turned into a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Wouldn't that imply that the outlets would function like it has always function within a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Quote:
"just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability."
Most of our countries aren't the real thread here.
Quote:
"People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment."
Let's keep it that way!!!
Quote:
"I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner."
Still you won't believe a single bit of evidence shown here? Or even suspect something?
cheers
Casper
For me it was not at all surprising. However I thought it might be surprising to some others on the forum, especially those who think that the American establishment is a perfect example of democracy and freedom. The CIA, which is a tool of the US government, has been facilitating coups d'etats and undermining countless democratically-elected governments for many years, as well as training dictators' death squads and secret police forces with its own resources.On 2005-03-30 10:55, mr swim wrote:
interesting, shocking, but sadly not surprising ... the CIA (amongst other intelligence agencies) have been nuts for years.
This is why it really annoys me when people talk about the US freeing Iraq from the evil dictator Saddam Hussein etc. I just don't buy it I'm afraid.
I think the following example is particularly pertinent:
The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country’s cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples’ human rights?"
Why indeed? Does the USA have some kind of divine right to comfort and security at the expense of the rest of the world? Well, this kind of Calvinist bullshit was used by the whites in South Africa too... look at what happened there.
Care to comment, Spirit?
The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country’s cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples’ human rights?"
Why indeed? Does the USA have some kind of divine right to comfort and security at the expense of the rest of the world? Well, this kind of Calvinist bullshit was used by the whites in South Africa too... look at what happened there.
Care to comment, Spirit?
I agree this stuff is tiresome. I don't even think there's anything we can do to change things immediately, in the physical reality.
What I do think is important is that we don't just accept these crimes and injustices, or start to regard them as normal.
Because I really think that if we don't question what is going on, then they really will have won.. they won't even have to pretend any more and we will have pure undiluted fascism.
Just because everything around you is a certain way, it doesn't mean you have to regard it as normal or the natural order. We all have a highly evolved brain, and the consciousness and discrimination needed to make decisions for ourselves.
What I do think is important is that we don't just accept these crimes and injustices, or start to regard them as normal.
Because I really think that if we don't question what is going on, then they really will have won.. they won't even have to pretend any more and we will have pure undiluted fascism.
Just because everything around you is a certain way, it doesn't mean you have to regard it as normal or the natural order. We all have a highly evolved brain, and the consciousness and discrimination needed to make decisions for ourselves.
Agreed.. it's a question which in many ways is beyond the scope of discussion on this forum.. we all know how through our own individual actions we can make a difference, through our music or whatever other art, through working in an ethical way, or even just raising our families in the best way possible.
Attempting to educate or spread knowledge which is hard to access ordinarily is also a useful thing, but it must be done in a coherent way, without resorting to harshness. If I was guilty of that in this thread, I apologize sincerely, as it was not my intention to be an arse
peace
Attempting to educate or spread knowledge which is hard to access ordinarily is also a useful thing, but it must be done in a coherent way, without resorting to harshness. If I was guilty of that in this thread, I apologize sincerely, as it was not my intention to be an arse
peace