The day against war

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:43 pm

On 2005-03-28 15:32, Casper wrote:
I think you'd believe that right away.

I don't believe anything without good evidence.

I think the answer to my question is that you oppose the USA and want to discredit it in any way possible.

I'm going to leave this thread now but I'd offer this advice at the risk of sounding patronising:
Choose your battles carefully.
There are plenty of genuine issues on which to base your opposition without resorting to fantasies which undermine your own credibility.

Good luck.

[ This Message was edited by: doodyrh on 2005-03-28 15:45 ]

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:54 pm

I did never , ever , ever sad anything to discredit America. I love that country!
Only those who currently run that government do I resent.

But be my guest , vote for Patriot Act II!
You won't read it , they are counting on you not reading it. pff.

Well the truth hurts doesn't it?
Until the next Hegelian Principle

mr swim · Post by **mr swim** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:29 pm

On 2005-03-28 11:32, dArKr3zIn wrote:

Speculating about what happened on 9/11 is something you can do all day and not get anywhere.

It will only distract you from looking at what is happening now - American military and economic imperialism increasing. Whether they planned it or not, it's happening. Whether they killed their own people, or if their people were killed by a small terrorist organization doesn't matter. More people are dying NOW and 9/11 is no justification whatsoever for this.

If you support the war in Afghanistan, Iraq and God knows wherever is next, then you are no better than the Islamic fanatics or the amoral economists in Washington. You regard death and misery with casual indifference, and human suffering to be some kind of statistical triviality.

dArKr3zIn - nigh on complete agreement. We need to start any normative discussion (discussion of the way things should be) from NOW. With all its fuck-ups. One can't be a good idealist unless one is to a certain extent a realist.

On the discussion of conspiracies, I think it odd that if Bush was in on 9/11 that he chose to be filmed reading a stupid story to 5 year-olds at the time of impact, and that he then spent hours looking utterly impotent. Not a good PR outcome from such a massive PR event.

On the physics side of things I'm also unconvinced. You can break steel with NO rise in temperature if you apply enough force. And the speed of the collapse appears due to the fact that the floors were supported by external steel braces. Push one floor down at the top and you push the braces out. Push the braces away at the top and the floors are no longer supported at all.

In general, I am sort of surprised that phrases like 'i'm not trying to convince' and 'opinions should all be respected' keep appearing here. Firstly, because (lets face it) we DO all want to convince people of our own outlooks (a desire which should always be tempered by an equal-and-opposite desire to be convinced by strong enough cases against - but often isn't).

Secondly, because we SHOULD all be trying to convince. Facts and arguments are (and should be treated as) normative - that is, they should be convincing without me being able to decide whether or not I want to be convinced. So any statement of fact, and any sound argument, just WILL be convincing (if one is convinced that it is a fact, or a sound argument ... that's the tricky bit here, right ?)

Not all opinions are born equal (e.g. the opinion that non-arians are inferior). I don't like the idea that I've got to respect everyone's opinions (BTW, not really talking about anyone here ...) ... sometimes people's opinions are just wrong ! Like the British and American politicians' opinion that Iraqis would welcome them with open arms (that was just crazy, and no rational person could possibly, in my view, have seriously considered it. But that means that Bush and Blair should not have been allowed to have it. Hence that they should be blamed for having it).

I guess maybe, though, such a forum is not the best environment for detailed debate.

my 2c

Will.

[ This Message was edited by: mr swim on 2005-03-28 21:04 ]

mr swim · Post by **mr swim** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:50 pm

On 2005-03-28 12:30, Spirit wrote:
I certainly support the liberation of Afghanistan. Remember the Taliban ? Blowing up historical monuments, hosting terrorist training camps, banning music, movies and most books ? No education at all for females ?

Now there is a president elected by Afghanis and minimal - mainly European - military patrols.

Sounds fine to me.

The Taliban were by all accounts an ugly, ignorant and repressive lot, and I can't believe anyone has any regrets that they are no longer a serious force (although they do apparently still control some of the country, and are hence still banning people from listening to music and women from being people).

C'mon Spirit. Who sponsored the Taliban to have food on the ground near that part of the USSR? Who paid them to fight communism?

As we all know, it was the west, especially America.

But the fact that someone has done something with bad consequences in the past doesn't stop them doing things with good consequences in the future (whether by happy coincidence or design. Shame I can't ever expect the latter from we imperialist nations).

So if you think it IS good that the taliban have gone, then what the Americans have done in the past (indeed, even what their intentions were for the future) shouldn't immediately be relevant.

Of course if you think that the American presence is going to cause lots more misery and destruction for Afghanis (not unlikely

) then if you're thinking just about them, you've got to weigh this up against the horror of living under the Taliban. That's pretty tricky.

But (american gung-ho flippancy about collateral damage during the war exluded for now) the Afghani's must be better off being allowed to be educated, to vote, and to live how they want to.

I left unecessary collateral damage out because we should now be in a position to say that it was a good thing to overthrow the taliban, even though we should say that the way in which US and UK forces went about it ('daisy-cutters' and all that) was a bad thing.

That's given that the Afghani's really are more free without the taliban. They may not be. I'm not sure if any one of the warlords is really much better than any other, and internal fighting still continues apace. Karzai has no real authority outside of Kabul (I gather) hence the democratic rights of the majority of Afghanis is not really being enjoyed by them.

Still. I have NO sadness that the taliban are out of power.

_________________

mr swim's home

[ This Message was edited by: mr swim on 2005-03-28 21:06 ]

Post by **garyb** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:55 pm

watch the movie. the articles he references are stored and linked on his site if you really want to know a little more than you do. if you just want to take sides or think you know already even though there is WAY too much to sift through and i doubt if any of you really have studied this as much as you think you have. either way, it matters little what we think unless we really want to know the truth about things. then, the powers that be, that make things happen as they do in the world would be exposed and powerless and things would be a lot nicer(as people returned to their "normal" and "true" nature).

the logic of politics is always great in theory, but in reality, things rarely happen for the reasons stated or imagined. this can be called crank thinking, or calmly reflected on. i WILL NOT fight the government or the official position. fighting will get me nowhere but snuffed. the movie i referenced is fun because it references OFFICIAL pronouncements as they change and morph. they tell the truth although the details will likely die with ALL the participants, because there is no progress and the same rulers that have always existed with the same religion that has always existed still exist. do the sheep truly know the intent of the shepard?

even IF everything is as the government sez in regards to 911(the number to dial on american phones for emergency), the CAUSE and the RESPOSIBLE PARTY for the event will be hidden. your arguements are pointless. your scope(here's the cwa tie in, and yet here's the cwa difference

) is too limited.

watch the movie it's free and the guy's a crank(so he's fun to watch), but be sure and watch the WHOLE 2 hours! don't just sit there predetermined and say "this and this is false so i'm right and i don't have to watch it". when it's over, THEN you will have something to START discussing calmly and rationally. OF COURSE, some of the info in it is not so good, after all, the sources include fox, the AP, the BBC, the French News Agency and the white house(hey,i'm NOT being disrespectful. these guys(in the "white house") have something called "national security" which means that sometimes they must keep secrets and lie for the greater good. of course the word "nation" means "tribe" so "national security" literally means that in america, a land of many nations, that some guys are just looking out for their tribe....).

here's a funny movie about it(masters of terror)....

http://www.infowars.com/videos.html#MOT

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:20 am

Garyb have you seen the lecture of Mike Gave In November 2001 "THE TRUTH & LIES OF 9/11"

It's a tough one to watch but it clearly explanes a big part of what's going on.

It's 3 ours of lecture. If somebody knows a way for me to upload it somewere do tell me.
I'm happy to share it!

Casper

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:12 am

Spirit:

War plans are drawn up to attack virtually every country in a variety of scenarios.

Really? That is no less alarming.

Obviously Iraq & Afghanistan are going to be near the top. I imagine Iran, Syria, & North Korea are currently top of the pops.

Sure. This is already happening. A few days ago they told news "more and more foreign terrorists arrive into Iraq. They are coming from Iran and Syria".

So this is a clear entitlement to attack into those countries, insn't it?

4) Accidentally on 9/11 five maneuvers were held at USA's eastern air space, in which fighting against hijacking was trained and radar harassing practiced 

Maybe, but what's your point ? If there was a grand conspiracy then wouldn't this be the last thing to practice ?

What's the point? Isn't obvious? Radars are disturbed so it's easier to tell stories about boeings' journeys.
And fighters are out of real usage. Although I agree it's pretty difficult, what the fighters could really do with passenger planes.

As for the later points dealing with engineering and physical aspects, its the Apollo nutters all over again. These are the same sort of weak-science arguments like the old "why is the flag flapping on the moon" rubbish.

Well, a child can tell those moon stories are rubbish, but what is your evidence against these theories?

And was the previous attempt to knock down a WTC tower also part of this conspiracy ?

Well, who said that REAL terror didn't exists? It does. Although right now the USA's liberalization and democratization is much more severe terror than terror by terrorists.

dArKr3zIn wrote:
American military and economic imperialism increasing. Whether they planned it or not, it's happening.

Exatcly!

And that was my point in starting this thread, not speculating who collapsed WTC and why.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:37 am

Spoimala wrote: Although I agree it's pretty difficult, what the fighters could really do with passenger planes

It's common practice, that when VHF communication is lost with Ground Control for one or another reason and the ultimate backup system to establish contact with a large airplane fails, one or more fighters are sent out to go and have a look at the airplane. It is a matter of safety indeed: the crew could have lost sense of position or direction, in which case the fighters will lead the airplane to safe ground. When communication is lost with an airplane, it's mostly 'fingerproblems' (for example pilot forgot to switch to next frequency), sometimes technical failures. But in case of no cooperation of the crew, they theoretically will take the airplane down. Fortunately, it never got that far. worst thing it does is it scare's the sh!t out of the crew when they see the fighters, but after that it's another roadtrip flying in formation

at0m.

8-Bit · Post by **8-Bit** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:48 am

This thread is goin nuts! All i have to say is this:

-Unwarranted foreign imperialism IS happening.

-The US IS becoming a police state (if you live there, you SHOULD know what I mean... if you don't, watch the news as Baseball players are being badgered 'per Patriot Act' for hurting the youth of america by using steroids.

So, regardless of what is said 'happened', the obvious results are the same; A government overstepping their boundaries, begging for revolution. It's almost comical how historically governments try to remove rights from the people that established it, only to be faced with overthrow and re-establishment.

LAUGH OUT LOUD! I'm buying a gun. (and I hate guns)

8

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:32 am

either way, it matters little what we think unless we really want to know the truth about things.

What is truth? (John 18:38)

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:02 am

On 2005-03-29 07:48, 8-Bit wrote:
-The US IS becoming a police state

Funny, yesterday I looked at the legendary movie "The Running Man" (Schwarzenegger). It is maybe more real than the makers of the film thought that time (1987).

Nowaday's reality TV... US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.

8-Bit · Post by **8-Bit** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:54 pm

On 2005-03-29 11:02, spoimala wrote:
On 2005-03-29 07:48, 8-Bit wrote:
-The US IS becoming a police state
Funny, yesterday I looked at the legendary movie "The Running Man" (Schwarzenegger). It is maybe more real than the makers of the film thought that time (1987).

Nowaday's reality TV... US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.

Hilarious... I love that movie. THe book is waaaaaaaaay better tho, the book is completely different,though. Yeh, things going on in the US so far have only been little-noticeable implications of what might be coming. Regardless, when the mass is opressed, the mass fights back. It's been going on since, well, forever really. I have a strong feeling that 'freedom loving people' won't stand for the lies fed them by the man who calls himself 'freedom loving'. Lol.

Just as simply as the impossibility to convince someone on a forum of your opinion is the same impossibility that any over-reaching leadership would resign without revolt. I'd almost bet on it happening before I die.

8

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:01 pm

ask the common US citizen what happened to Kosovo after "the serb butchers" were driven out. they stopped watching after the tv stopped transmitting. same goes for "aid organisations", people getting money from citizens all over the world to help people.

after the cameras left, so did they. not all, but most.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:29 pm

On 2005-03-29 15:54, 8-Bit wrote:
...is the same impossibility that any over-reaching leadership would resign without revolt. I'd almost bet on it happening before I die.

if those almost 50% citizens that 'lost' the previous election would simply refuse to consume, how long could the government stand this ?
Would they force you shopping by pointing a gun at your head ?

cheers, Tom

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:04 pm

On 2005-03-29 11:02, spoimala wrote:
US being police state, world has run out of oil, harsh mispresenting of facts by public media... scary.

Are you talking about Earth or some other planet ? The US is not within cooee of a police state - you're more free to say what you like there than in just about any country on the planet. You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored.

'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with. But there are hundreds of freely available 'news' services ready to offer an alternate viewpoint - many (if not most) based in the US. Police state ?

The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy. Their primary concern is audience share and money. Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates - just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability.

People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment.

For a trivial invesment you have a potential audience of billions.

How does that fit with this 'police state' idea ?

I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:06 am

Yes, since the world is being freed, all Human Rights organisations start lying cos they don't have reason for existance soon.

Spirit, get real.

edit:

“Last year, we had a congregation of human rights defenders sponsored by me and the UN High Commission on Human Rights who have found their lives extraordinarily blighted in the last two-and-a-half years because oppressive regimes, quite often supported by the U.S. Government, are now branding the human rights heroes as terrorists. And this is the kind of thing that has caused their lives to be completely changed in a deleterious way.”

Former President and Nobel Peace Prize Winner Jimmy Carter in an interview with PBS’s Jim Lehrer on July 27, 2004.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4310847.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392519.stm

[ This Message was edited by: at0m on 2005-03-30 10:17 ]

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:54 am

Are you talking about Earth or some other planet ?

The movie.

Okay, it was written a bit muddled. But becoming reality day by day.
I wouldn't be surprised if soon China isn't the only country limiting access to Z...

At0m, indeed, who really needs Amnesty and Greenpeace anymore...

---

I hope these differences of our opinions in this thread won't harm much our Pulsar-brotherhood.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:43 am

actually these differencences can proof that there is a brotherhood - and that people are indeed able to discuss and not just propagate their own opinion.

cheers, Tom

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:33 am

At0m, I think the existence of 'Human Rights' organisations in fact is further evidence of the level of freedom. In a police state human rights organisations aren't tolerated.

But also, those organisations are just groupings of people like any other. They are not composed of divinely-inspired saints, nor above a little politics themselves... But of course it's important they are there and active - another part of the 'free world'.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:39 am

I thought you guys might like to read this:

http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html