At least there is some hope, as this quote from the above link suggest:
The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA’s criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee’s On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics.
The day against war
interesting, shocking, but sadly not surprising ... the CIA (amongst other intelligence agencies) have been nuts for years.
Chomsky is good on all these matters.
Also a couple of documentaries you might be interested in:
'The Power of Nightmares' (3 parts) charting the rise of neo-conservativism and fundamentalist islam
and
'The Revolution Will Not be Televised' - a documentary about the attempted (we take it american-backed) military coup in Venezuela in 2001.
Last time I looked both of these were on 'UKNova' if you are bit-torrenters.
Chomsky is good on all these matters.
Also a couple of documentaries you might be interested in:
'The Power of Nightmares' (3 parts) charting the rise of neo-conservativism and fundamentalist islam
and
'The Revolution Will Not be Televised' - a documentary about the attempted (we take it american-backed) military coup in Venezuela in 2001.
Last time I looked both of these were on 'UKNova' if you are bit-torrenters.
Quote:
"You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored."
Than why does Patriot Act I allow the same email monitoring ?
The implications of all those extra rules in that Patriot Act comes down to the fact that they can scan your email too Spirit!
Whitout you beeing properly informed.
Quote:
'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with'
No no , what they tell is not the problem here, it's what most outlets won't show and tell you.
One by one all those fireman who worked there on ground 0 are sick ill or dead already!
Isn't that big news? Those men worked there asses off you know. And your not even interested why that is ??
Quote:
"The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy."
You are very sure of this?
Quote:
"Their primary concern is audience share and money."
Hey , for once we agree.
Quote:
"Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates"
what would happen when that socio-economic framework turned into a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Wouldn't that imply that the outlets would function like it has always function within a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Quote:
"just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability."
Most of our countries aren't the real thread here.
Quote:
"People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment."
Let's keep it that way!!!
Quote:
"I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner."
Still you won't believe a single bit of evidence shown here? Or even suspect something?
cheers
Casper
"You wouldn't even be able to get to Planet Z if you were living in China - and your email would be monitored."
Than why does Patriot Act I allow the same email monitoring ?
The implications of all those extra rules in that Patriot Act comes down to the fact that they can scan your email too Spirit!
Whitout you beeing properly informed.
Quote:
'Public media' just present information which you happen to disagree with'
No no , what they tell is not the problem here, it's what most outlets won't show and tell you.
One by one all those fireman who worked there on ground 0 are sick ill or dead already!
Isn't that big news? Those men worked there asses off you know. And your not even interested why that is ??
Quote:
"The big media organisations are not part of some evil conspiracy."
You are very sure of this?
Quote:
"Their primary concern is audience share and money."
Hey , for once we agree.
Quote:
"Sure they're going to support the basic socio-economic framework in which their business operates"
what would happen when that socio-economic framework turned into a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Wouldn't that imply that the outlets would function like it has always function within a fascisim kind of socio-economic framework?
Quote:
"just as most people in this forum tacitly support their own society's stability."
Most of our countries aren't the real thread here.
Quote:
"People have never had such incredible opportunities to express their opinions to a world audience without fear of punishment."
Let's keep it that way!!!
Quote:
"I think some people are desperate to find the bogeyman hiding around every corner."
Still you won't believe a single bit of evidence shown here? Or even suspect something?
cheers
Casper
For me it was not at all surprising. However I thought it might be surprising to some others on the forum, especially those who think that the American establishment is a perfect example of democracy and freedom. The CIA, which is a tool of the US government, has been facilitating coups d'etats and undermining countless democratically-elected governments for many years, as well as training dictators' death squads and secret police forces with its own resources.On 2005-03-30 10:55, mr swim wrote:
interesting, shocking, but sadly not surprising ... the CIA (amongst other intelligence agencies) have been nuts for years.
This is why it really annoys me when people talk about the US freeing Iraq from the evil dictator Saddam Hussein etc. I just don't buy it I'm afraid.
I think the following example is particularly pertinent:
The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country’s cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples’ human rights?"
Why indeed? Does the USA have some kind of divine right to comfort and security at the expense of the rest of the world? Well, this kind of Calvinist bullshit was used by the whites in South Africa too... look at what happened there.
Care to comment, Spirit?
The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country’s cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples’ human rights?"
Why indeed? Does the USA have some kind of divine right to comfort and security at the expense of the rest of the world? Well, this kind of Calvinist bullshit was used by the whites in South Africa too... look at what happened there.
Care to comment, Spirit?
I agree this stuff is tiresome. I don't even think there's anything we can do to change things immediately, in the physical reality.
What I do think is important is that we don't just accept these crimes and injustices, or start to regard them as normal.
Because I really think that if we don't question what is going on, then they really will have won.. they won't even have to pretend any more and we will have pure undiluted fascism.
Just because everything around you is a certain way, it doesn't mean you have to regard it as normal or the natural order. We all have a highly evolved brain, and the consciousness and discrimination needed to make decisions for ourselves.
What I do think is important is that we don't just accept these crimes and injustices, or start to regard them as normal.
Because I really think that if we don't question what is going on, then they really will have won.. they won't even have to pretend any more and we will have pure undiluted fascism.
Just because everything around you is a certain way, it doesn't mean you have to regard it as normal or the natural order. We all have a highly evolved brain, and the consciousness and discrimination needed to make decisions for ourselves.
Agreed.. it's a question which in many ways is beyond the scope of discussion on this forum.. we all know how through our own individual actions we can make a difference, through our music or whatever other art, through working in an ethical way, or even just raising our families in the best way possible.
Attempting to educate or spread knowledge which is hard to access ordinarily is also a useful thing, but it must be done in a coherent way, without resorting to harshness. If I was guilty of that in this thread, I apologize sincerely, as it was not my intention to be an arse
peace
Attempting to educate or spread knowledge which is hard to access ordinarily is also a useful thing, but it must be done in a coherent way, without resorting to harshness. If I was guilty of that in this thread, I apologize sincerely, as it was not my intention to be an arse
peace
This forum, and the ability of anyone who wishes to express their opinion, is very important.
I may not be changing anyones opinion, nor might Darkr3zin be changing my mind (yet
) but that's not the crucial factor. The main thing is that we *can* discuss these things without going nuts. It's when people can't discuss issues that they start moving toward more extreme outlets for their thoughts.
As for the CIA and right-wing dictatorships... sure the US has a terrible record there. Especially during the Cold War such dictators seemed to be regarded as useful anti-communist states.
And didn't the US pick a string of losers ? Pinochet, Marcos, the Shah, Saddam etc. Even in the early years of the Vietnam war they backed a military coupe in the south which just replaced a weak PM with a weak general.
The US ain't perfect. Far from it. But I do believe the US is basically a benevolent state. I also think it is judged far more harshly than other nations.
I may not be changing anyones opinion, nor might Darkr3zin be changing my mind (yet
) but that's not the crucial factor. The main thing is that we *can* discuss these things without going nuts. It's when people can't discuss issues that they start moving toward more extreme outlets for their thoughts.As for the CIA and right-wing dictatorships... sure the US has a terrible record there. Especially during the Cold War such dictators seemed to be regarded as useful anti-communist states.
And didn't the US pick a string of losers ? Pinochet, Marcos, the Shah, Saddam etc. Even in the early years of the Vietnam war they backed a military coupe in the south which just replaced a weak PM with a weak general.
The US ain't perfect. Far from it. But I do believe the US is basically a benevolent state. I also think it is judged far more harshly than other nations.
There is. You can vote (I hope you are living in a country with right to vote). With your vote, your money, your feet...On 2005-03-30 15:57, dArKr3zIn wrote:
I agree this stuff is tiresome. I don't even think there's anything we can do to change things immediately, in the physical reality.
Well, not immediately, but nothing happens immediately!
Yeah, the old phrase - The violence starts where intelligence ends.On 2005-03-30 17:54, Spirit wrote:
It's when people can't discuss issues that they start moving toward more extreme outlets for their thoughts.
Oh, I have forgotten to put my favorite quote here:
"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
Herman Göring, as recorded by Gustave Gilbert, from interviews of defendants at the Nürnberg Trials. From his book: Nuremberg Diary (1947).
I just hope the American people will see one day what kind of regieme is in place right now. And that they realize that voting is a precious thing. Something to verify at the very least!
I would like to thank ALL of you for stating your opinion and not going totaly nuts with all these coincedences/alligations/facts.
But don't forget this topic , as it is an importent one to review again and again.
I'm waiting for the next DVD from Michael C. Ruppert. Until then..
Be and keep the peace
Casper
I would like to thank ALL of you for stating your opinion and not going totaly nuts with all these coincedences/alligations/facts.
But don't forget this topic , as it is an importent one to review again and again.
I'm waiting for the next DVD from Michael C. Ruppert. Until then..
Be and keep the peace
Casper
The more severe problem is that war is also a giant business and there`s a lot of money to make with it. Especially the european and americans are some kind of dependend of such business - because they are in need to sell weapons and war techniques.
"Heaven is there where hell is and heaven is not on earth!"
Who's that?On 2005-03-31 04:07, Casper wrote:
I'm waiting for the next DVD from Michael C. Ruppert. Until then..
http://www.angelfire.com/on/GEAR2000/mruppert.html ?
Yeah, the privatization of those companies is evil. (As is privatization of many public services)On 2005-03-31 05:00, Zer wrote:
The more severe problem is that war is also a giant business and there`s a lot of money to make with it.
EDIT: Hehee, http://www.trench.no/fun/Bush_inbox.jpg
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2005-03-31 06:53 ]</font>
As an ex-intelligence professional (Army CI Agent), I can let you guys know that after the overwhelming lack of restrictions and controls, there was an implementation of what is called 'Intelligence Oversight'. The oversight was basically setup so that civil rights and liberties would not be stepped on by intelligence agencies unless there is some amount of authorization from up top(usually after evidence). These are called 'procedures'.On 2005-03-30 07:58, hubird wrote:
At least there is some hope, as this quote from the above link suggest:
The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA’s criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee’s On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics.
After the passing of Patriot Act 1, things changed. Its almost as if we're in the 60's again with intelligence having free reign over the citizens. A lot of inappropirate and downright *wrong* things happened back then and will probably begin to surface.
One example is of a CI agent being tasked to become a 'student' and join liberal and anti-conformist groups to report whats going on, regardless of any evidence of improper or immoral intent/activity.
With enough research, any person could look up loads of activites that went on in the 50's and 60's that were completely wrong and crushed civil rights and social contention in our agencies.
One might argue that they are willing to give up several rights to help root out the wrongs, disregarding the obvious fact that once those rights are lost, democracy is lost and despotism is invetitable.
Appropriate 'homeland security' can be done WITH intelligence oversight. Not every negative act can be avoided, not everything is sugar and candy. Walking over the right people for the wrong reasons will never be justified. The US is pretty 'free' as it is, though the founded ideals are being washed away.
I hope for the people of the US that patriot act 2 will never come around and that patriot act 1 will be removed in the future. There's no patriotism in those acts, only relenquish of rights that a true patriot would hold on to. A real american patriot knows what his country was founded on and will not stand for these 'acts'.
Cheers,
8
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 8-Bit on 2005-03-31 08:37 ]</font>
In regards to the Patriot act, at least some of the more severe changes in the surveillance of U.S. persons (via the Patriot Act) will expire on December 31, 2005 unless renewed by Congress, but not all will. Short list:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2005-03-31 22:07 ]</font>
- A. The provisions that expire include:
- Sec. 201. Authority To Intercept Wire, Oral, And Electronic Communications Relating To Terrorism.
- Sec. 202. Authority To Intercept Wire, Oral, And Electronic Communications Relating To Computer Fraud And Abuse Offenses.
- Sec. 203(b), (d). Authority To Share Criminal Investigative Information.
- Sec. 206. Roving Surveillance Authority Under The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Of 1978.
- Sec. 207. Duration Of FISA Surveillance Of Non-United States Persons Who Are Agents Of A Foreign Power.
- Sec. 209. Seizure Of Voice-Mail Messages Pursuant To Warrants.
- Sec. 212. Emergency Disclosure Of Electronic Communications To Protect Life And Limb.
- Sec. 214. Pen Register And Trap And Trace Authority Under Fisa.
- Sec. 215. Access To Records And Other Items Under The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
- Sec. 217. Interception Of Computer Trespasser Communications.
- Sec. 218. Foreign Intelligence Information.
- Sec. 220. Nationwide Service Of Search Warrants For Electronic Evidence.
- Sec. 223. Civil Liability For Certain Unauthorized Disclosures.
- B. The following provision do not expire:
- Sec. 203(a),(c): Grand jury sharing of info
- Sec. 208. Designation Of Judges: increases number of FISA judges
- Sec. 210: ECPA Scope of Subpoenas for records of electronic communications--clearly allowing e-mails routing information :
- Sec. 211: ECPA Clarification of scope: privacy provisions of Cable Act overridden for communication services offered by cable providers
- (but not for records relating to cable viewing)
- Sec. 213: Sneak & Peek: delay notification of execution of a warrant
- Sec. 216: Modification of pen/trap authorities: (in original PATRIOT, would have sunsetted)
- Sec. 219: Single jurisdiction search warrants for terrorism
- Sec. 222 Assistance to law enforcement
- Sec. 225. Immunity For Compliance With Fisa Wiretap. Can continue all investigations active at the time of expiration.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2005-03-31 22:07 ]</font>
Enough about legends. Let's forget the speculation. Here's some real stuff:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm
And hey, it wasn't published on 1. April
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm
And hey, it wasn't published on 1. April
Just try to predict the future.
In time the last bit of oil will be worth golden mountens because of the price per barrel.
The next step for all of us car users will eventually drive a car with water vaper exostion.
But! This will not happen on the global scale until the last buyer of a barrel of oil will stop to pay the high price and rebuild or buy a new car.
In time the last bit of oil will be worth golden mountens because of the price per barrel.
The next step for all of us car users will eventually drive a car with water vaper exostion.
But! This will not happen on the global scale until the last buyer of a barrel of oil will stop to pay the high price and rebuild or buy a new car.