Happy Canada Day
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Guest
Separation or independence means complete detachment.
Like when you separate an arm from a body. The body will be hurt and be upset and try to fight it but at the end the body gives up and accommodate.
The severed body part then must be buried or cremated as the arm can’t simply be kept on live support or a freezer. And the body goes on to forget the arm.
Or like a child that decided to rebel and leave home permanently and want nothing to do with his parents. Divorce his parents. So the kid wants nothing to do with the parents but want to be able to come home when he feels in danger or if he is in trouble or got no money, he eats the food, sleeps in his old bed, take money, but still want his parents not to tell him anything,
That is how I see Separation of Quebec. Those separatists either separate with the complete meaning of the word or stay attached to the rest of the Canadian body. Regardless whether the body is completely fit or not. at least it is breathing and it is better off than any capable bodies in this world.
to me separation simply means
1. Quebec gets its own monetary system going and don’t tie it up to the Canadian dollar/Economy
2. Give up the Canadian citizenship and issue Quebecois citizenship with new Quebecois Passport. No dual citizenship because we are pissed and because you wanted not be part of Canada.
3. Stop at customs every time you decided to take a drive down to Hull or the rest of Canada.
4. Don’t ask the federal gov’t for AID.
If separation takes place I can see ½ of the 6 million People living in Quebec end up in Ontario and the rest of Canada in matter of hours.
100% of immigrants will move then ½ of the rest of Quebecois will move to stay Canadians
Then in couple of years I see Quebec become the 51st state.
I think that is why the rest of Canada can’t understand the separatists "raison" for separation.
Like when you separate an arm from a body. The body will be hurt and be upset and try to fight it but at the end the body gives up and accommodate.
The severed body part then must be buried or cremated as the arm can’t simply be kept on live support or a freezer. And the body goes on to forget the arm.
Or like a child that decided to rebel and leave home permanently and want nothing to do with his parents. Divorce his parents. So the kid wants nothing to do with the parents but want to be able to come home when he feels in danger or if he is in trouble or got no money, he eats the food, sleeps in his old bed, take money, but still want his parents not to tell him anything,
That is how I see Separation of Quebec. Those separatists either separate with the complete meaning of the word or stay attached to the rest of the Canadian body. Regardless whether the body is completely fit or not. at least it is breathing and it is better off than any capable bodies in this world.
to me separation simply means
1. Quebec gets its own monetary system going and don’t tie it up to the Canadian dollar/Economy
2. Give up the Canadian citizenship and issue Quebecois citizenship with new Quebecois Passport. No dual citizenship because we are pissed and because you wanted not be part of Canada.
3. Stop at customs every time you decided to take a drive down to Hull or the rest of Canada.
4. Don’t ask the federal gov’t for AID.
If separation takes place I can see ½ of the 6 million People living in Quebec end up in Ontario and the rest of Canada in matter of hours.
100% of immigrants will move then ½ of the rest of Quebecois will move to stay Canadians
Then in couple of years I see Quebec become the 51st state.
I think that is why the rest of Canada can’t understand the separatists "raison" for separation.
You are almost right antar, except your example and rhetoric doesn't take into account the fact that the arm was *forced* to be part of the body in the first place, which changes things a fair bit. For a conquered people, you'll have to admit that we are pretty laid-back about it, and have managed to preserve our culture from assimilation
Which is why I'm kind of against separation right now, as at this point the assimilation is going the other way (i.e. I can get poutine in Ontario!), and most studies show that the rest of Canada's values are alot closer to ours (i.e. civil liberties) than with the US's conservative freaks, hence just about everyone involved in Canada would prefer to stay in their current situation instead of ending up as a US state. Or, in other words, people will be open to negociations, on both sides.
Also, your 50% of people leaving Quebec is grossly exagerated, as people will definitely prefer to stay on the same side of the frontier as their family, and there might be some immigration of people who are actually into the idea of building a country, and/or Franco-Canadians coming back to live here. It's all purely spectulative at this point.
Also, given that we're pretty much half the heart of Canada, if we leave, the rest of Canada will be just as fucked as we are, economically and geographically. I suspect some of the less rich provinces, like New Brunswick, PEI and Newfoundland will end up as US states faster than we would, especially since the US would then rake in all that coastal area. Given the complete economic interdependance of Quebec and Ontario as this point, even if the rest of Canada is "pissed" at us, it's not like they'll have much of a choice to negociate a smooth transition, as otherwise they'll fall with us.
As for asking the Federal Gov for aid, we currently give them more money than we get back, hence we'd actually have more (but we'd spend alot more to get currency and treaties and embassies and stuff up and running, so probably end up with roughly the same for the first 10-20 years needed to get the country up and running.) I'm not personally against the idea of forwarding money to other provinces in needs, if our needs are covered, but the main problem at this point is that money stays clogged in Ottawa and doesn't really do any province any good. Ontario whines about this issue also, so it's not a purely Quebec-centric problem.
I also really doubt Quebec would agree to becoming part of the US, and if they try to force us, well, I can only have pity for the poor Alabama teenager who will be ordered to come and hunt me down in 3-4 feet of snow and temperatures of -30C. As much as I hate cold and winter, as much I am perfectly able to survive comfortably in its extreme conditions if the need arise, and I'm not the only one. Think Russia-Afghanistan with snow, ice and polar bears. Given how "well" the US is faring right now in Irak, I'll let you imagine who they'd do over here. And anyway, we can just stop selling them electricity, and most of the east coast will be shut down =P =P
Which is why I'm kind of against separation right now, as at this point the assimilation is going the other way (i.e. I can get poutine in Ontario!), and most studies show that the rest of Canada's values are alot closer to ours (i.e. civil liberties) than with the US's conservative freaks, hence just about everyone involved in Canada would prefer to stay in their current situation instead of ending up as a US state. Or, in other words, people will be open to negociations, on both sides.
Also, your 50% of people leaving Quebec is grossly exagerated, as people will definitely prefer to stay on the same side of the frontier as their family, and there might be some immigration of people who are actually into the idea of building a country, and/or Franco-Canadians coming back to live here. It's all purely spectulative at this point.
Also, given that we're pretty much half the heart of Canada, if we leave, the rest of Canada will be just as fucked as we are, economically and geographically. I suspect some of the less rich provinces, like New Brunswick, PEI and Newfoundland will end up as US states faster than we would, especially since the US would then rake in all that coastal area. Given the complete economic interdependance of Quebec and Ontario as this point, even if the rest of Canada is "pissed" at us, it's not like they'll have much of a choice to negociate a smooth transition, as otherwise they'll fall with us.
As for asking the Federal Gov for aid, we currently give them more money than we get back, hence we'd actually have more (but we'd spend alot more to get currency and treaties and embassies and stuff up and running, so probably end up with roughly the same for the first 10-20 years needed to get the country up and running.) I'm not personally against the idea of forwarding money to other provinces in needs, if our needs are covered, but the main problem at this point is that money stays clogged in Ottawa and doesn't really do any province any good. Ontario whines about this issue also, so it's not a purely Quebec-centric problem.
I also really doubt Quebec would agree to becoming part of the US, and if they try to force us, well, I can only have pity for the poor Alabama teenager who will be ordered to come and hunt me down in 3-4 feet of snow and temperatures of -30C. As much as I hate cold and winter, as much I am perfectly able to survive comfortably in its extreme conditions if the need arise, and I'm not the only one. Think Russia-Afghanistan with snow, ice and polar bears. Given how "well" the US is faring right now in Irak, I'll let you imagine who they'd do over here. And anyway, we can just stop selling them electricity, and most of the east coast will be shut down =P =P
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Guest
I agree,
that is why Quebec or other provinces should not think of breaking Canada up everytime they have beef with the federal gvernment.
Quebec can stay part of the body or the heart of the body and get what it wants from Ottawa via diplomacy without keep holding referendums or threatning with seperation.
Seperation like you said will F**k Canada as a whole. and the part is always weaker then the whole. This won't allow the USA to swallow this great country piece by piece or tap into our great resources.
the USA is like the mighty sharc from JAWS once it smells the first drop of blood it will attack. I mean look what they called us for simply taking a neutral position on their invasion of IRAQ. We became their public enemy #1. and we are their neighbour for god's sake.
Politicians in the USA already said Quebec is a matter of time the 51th state and other will follow. No wonder Howerd Sten and many others said Canada is the 51th state by Canadian don't know it yet.
I am sure the people of quebec are smarter than having this great nation fell in the hands of its neighbour and its deranged way of running the world. Then and only then we deserve to be called Canuckostanies.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-07-06 12:58 ]</font>
that is why Quebec or other provinces should not think of breaking Canada up everytime they have beef with the federal gvernment.
Quebec can stay part of the body or the heart of the body and get what it wants from Ottawa via diplomacy without keep holding referendums or threatning with seperation.
Seperation like you said will F**k Canada as a whole. and the part is always weaker then the whole. This won't allow the USA to swallow this great country piece by piece or tap into our great resources.
the USA is like the mighty sharc from JAWS once it smells the first drop of blood it will attack. I mean look what they called us for simply taking a neutral position on their invasion of IRAQ. We became their public enemy #1. and we are their neighbour for god's sake.
Politicians in the USA already said Quebec is a matter of time the 51th state and other will follow. No wonder Howerd Sten and many others said Canada is the 51th state by Canadian don't know it yet.
I am sure the people of quebec are smarter than having this great nation fell in the hands of its neighbour and its deranged way of running the world. Then and only then we deserve to be called Canuckostanies.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-07-06 12:58 ]</font>
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paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Edit, this was posted before Antar's above reply
Antar,
You have demonstrated perfectly he lack of understanding between Quebec and the rest of Canada by reacting the way you did.
This "shape up or ship out" attitude is exactly what we don't need in Canada. We need to help each other out as Symbiote pointed out(helping provinces in need). Instead, we get anti-Quebec lip. I can certainly see a lot of businesses moving out of Quebec if there were a separation bringing with them a part of the population, but 50%???
One thing has not been mentioned throughout this debate. The monetary system would NOT change because one of the important points the Parti Québécois has brought up is that Quebec would share the canadian dollar soas not to devaluate it to nothing. The economic growth of Canada is too tightly involved with Quebec's growth and it should not be a big problem just to keep contracts as they are. I believe it would be just a question of reformulation. Mind you, governments love to make things complicated so this would drag on and on no doubt...
Passports to cross the bridge to Ottawa... Give me a break, Antar. Now you're just being ludicrous.
Read a bit more about this part of the country's history and you'll see that we are a heck of a lot more tame than you think, as Symbiote also pointed out.
Oh! and remember, most americans don't know where Quebec is
_________________
Are we listening?..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-07-06 13:01 ]</font>
Antar,
You have demonstrated perfectly he lack of understanding between Quebec and the rest of Canada by reacting the way you did.
This "shape up or ship out" attitude is exactly what we don't need in Canada. We need to help each other out as Symbiote pointed out(helping provinces in need). Instead, we get anti-Quebec lip. I can certainly see a lot of businesses moving out of Quebec if there were a separation bringing with them a part of the population, but 50%???
One thing has not been mentioned throughout this debate. The monetary system would NOT change because one of the important points the Parti Québécois has brought up is that Quebec would share the canadian dollar soas not to devaluate it to nothing. The economic growth of Canada is too tightly involved with Quebec's growth and it should not be a big problem just to keep contracts as they are. I believe it would be just a question of reformulation. Mind you, governments love to make things complicated so this would drag on and on no doubt...
Passports to cross the bridge to Ottawa... Give me a break, Antar. Now you're just being ludicrous.
Read a bit more about this part of the country's history and you'll see that we are a heck of a lot more tame than you think, as Symbiote also pointed out.
Oh! and remember, most americans don't know where Quebec is
_________________
Are we listening?..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-07-06 13:01 ]</font>
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Guest
"shape up or ship out".
the rest of Canada never exercised this terminology. the Canadian people whereever they are are really nice people but sometimes they can't see the point of seperation I was simply implying what seperation really means
You are right I may not fully understand the Quebecois point of view but isn't Quebec considered a distinct Province compared to others? I am sure there are much more Quebec can achive by staying in then being on its own,
BUT sometimes it is better to do what is best for the whole country.
And let us hope the whole country stays Cloacked from Foreign and so called friendly invasion.
the rest of Canada never exercised this terminology. the Canadian people whereever they are are really nice people but sometimes they can't see the point of seperation I was simply implying what seperation really means
You are right I may not fully understand the Quebecois point of view but isn't Quebec considered a distinct Province compared to others? I am sure there are much more Quebec can achive by staying in then being on its own,
BUT sometimes it is better to do what is best for the whole country.
And let us hope the whole country stays Cloacked from Foreign and so called friendly invasion.
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paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
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blazesboylan
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: The Great White North
- Contact:
WHERE SHOULD THE TUBE GO?On 2005-07-05 01:40, wayne wrote:I see endless squabbles about where the tube goes...On 2005-07-05 00:53, blazesboylan wrote:
this country needs an enema
- B.C. and Alberta: in Quebec. Noone out here seems to recognize that this is a bilingual country. There are some heavy pot-smokers out here who want to separate too, though.
- Saskatchewan and Manitoba: the Maritimes. Maritimers are all a bunch of freeloading unemployed dolers, as far as the Prairies are concerned.
- Ontario: Ontario. There is nothing else to Canada outside of Ontario, after all.
- Quebec: the rest of Canada.
- New Brunswick: Maine. Nobody in New Brunswick really knows where Canada is, anyway. They're more Acadien than Canadian.
- Nova Scotia: The West. Those bastards in Alberta are economically prosperous, and the BCers don't buy our fish. Bastards.
- Newfoundland & Labrador: Spain. They tried to steal our fish!!!
- PEI: Ontario. Ontarians are so egotistical. And they come in with their damned film crews and ruin our potato fields just so they can make Anne of Green Gables. Who do they think they are?!?
- Nunavut: the rest of Canada. We can rule ourselves. And we're rich. We have DIAMONDS!!!
- The Northwest Territories: Stick it to the damned flies! Mosquitoes, blackflies, deer flies, horse flies, ...
- The Yukon: What tube? Life's good up here, we don't care about Canada or any enema. Pass the bottle opener, eh?