bombs in london

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:20 pm

I, for one, would still like to hear your constructive input

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:31 pm

Really thanks, my friend.
(in the hope you were talking to me)

[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-08 18:32 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:42 pm

Me too Cochise.. your humility and objectivity are nice to see in these dark days

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:33 pm

There is an old British military adage
it seems to sum up the arguing here and even the faction violence in Iraq. It sums up the perfect political/militia system of ensuring control.

the adage:-

'Divide and rule'

cheers
-Me$$iah

skwawks · Post by **skwawks** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:51 pm

Ah ....booked my holiday to London yesterday. What Bomb?

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:52 pm

Me$$iah, old British military? It goes way back: 'Divide et impera' is a trick of ancient Rome...

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:54 pm

On 2005-07-08 18:14, dArKr3zIn wrote:
If you're referring to me, I bear no-one any personal grudge and I am not a violent person. I merely feel that to make flippant comments about the crusades insults a massive part of the world population. It's pure racism, ignorance and lack of respect.

There's a part of me which would like to react with violent words to Spirit's silliness, but another part of me that realises he's just silly and it's not worth tainting myself with violence as a reaction to such silliness...

Apart from anything else, this is not the time or place for more fighting, and Planet Z should not be a place of personal conflict. I'm trying my best to keep the discussion civil.

I take it then you are still upset about Richard the Lionheart

If it only takes a reference to the campaigns of an English King 700 years ago to make you feel like committing a violent act, I think it's obvious who here is knotted up with hate and anger. How many old wars do you want to refight ?

But to be fair, I'm still all worked up about those dastardly Normans, not to mention those rampaging Norwegians and their accursed longboats !

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:07 pm

Spirit, read up a little on the subject, and then come back and discuss. Only after you educate yourself will you see how little of a laughing matter the crusades and other colonial acts are. Of course I don't expect you to do any such thing (educate yourself) but that's another matter.. I'd love to be proved wrong though

I'll leave you with an article here.. a long read but worth it:

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041217.htm

Random fact pulled out of the article:

"...the doubling of acute malnutrition among children since the invasion (now at the level of Burundi, far higher than Haiti or Uganda)..."

(referring to atrocities committed in Iraq)

Again, I urge everyone here to read some Chomsky articles... even if you think Alex Jones and David Icke are lunatics you cannot argue with Mr.Chomsky - the man is seriously well-read and hyper-intelligent. He also can put things way more eloquently than I, so that's where I'll try and leave it for the preaching (I said I'll try, okay?

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:13 pm

Dark, I'm merely trying to make the point (with Normans & Vikings too) that such old wars may have been full of horror & injustice, but after so many hundreds of years they shouldn't still be a cause for conflict.

The Japanese were incredibly brutal & cruel to thousands of Australian servicemen - just 60 years ago - but I have absolutely no ill feelings toward Japan. Nor do Japanese veterans marking the anniversary of battles bother me.

There will never be an end to war if people hold on to ancient resentments.

Otherwise I've enjoyed our debate. After all, it's pointless debating with people if they only agree 100% with everything you say. I think I've learned a few things from your posts.

Farewell

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:23 pm

Here, here!

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:27 pm

Spirit, I'm glad you learned something from my posts.

I've been accused of idealism in my time but the following phrase of yours is the most idealistic thing I've ever heard:

" I'm merely trying to make the point (with Normans & Vikings too) that such old wars may have been full of horror & injustice, but after so many hundreds of years they shouldn't still be a cause for conflict."

It's one thing forgiving the actions of your ancestors or their enemies. However, if you look at the Palestinian situation now you have children dying on ALL sides. This is as a direct political and territorial result of the crusades (again, read up... you'll find it's the pesky Brits again...). Therefore how can you just say the crusades are irrelevant and joke about it?

Here in the UK a while back an elected politician was sacked because she merely said that it's inevitable that more and more women in Palestine are becoming suicide bombers, because the reaction to the grief of seeing your child murdered can be immense.

Whether or not you believe such a statement is right or wrong, this was an an elected MP (and a mother) who said what she said in the apparent belief that she lived in a democracy with free speech. It seems she was wrong...

[edit: I forgot to mention that she was sacked from an OPPOSITION party

]

[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-08 20:30 ]

Post by **hubird** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:35 pm

I really don't see why Spirit would be in the non-ignorance or whatever camp...on the contrary, I'd say

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:48 pm

On 2005-07-08 20:27, dArKr3zIn wrote:
However, if you look at the Palestinian situation now you have children dying on ALL sides. This is as a direct political and territorial result of the crusades

Centuries have gone by - plenty of time to try something new. Even many addicts, alcoholics and imbisciles reach a point when the recognize it's time to try something different. Blaming events that far back in history for your continued course of self destruction is not ignorant, it's insane. During Bill Clinton's last ditch efforts at establishing an honorable legacy in Middle East negotiations Arafat had 95% of everything on the table for the taking and he walked away. As stated before without a certain amount of compromise on everyone's part progress cannot take place.

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:55 pm

'Divide et impera'

I know, I just couldnt resist framing it in that context what with the bombs in London and them mention of Africa

I love history me

Cheers
-Me$$iah

skwawks · Post by **skwawks** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:19 pm

I'd be interested to know the percentage of distraught palestinian mothers that DID become suicide bombers .I'm not being trivial here.
I just think it's throwaway line . As far as I'm concerned being a suicide bomber is a very special sort of stupidity and one that would generally speaking not be practiced by a mother of any description...

The one thing that pisses me right off about suicide bombers is what sort of complete low life arsehole could actually recruit and encourage someone to end their life in this useless way . I say useless because it isnt going to change anything . I'm NOT cancelling going to London ,it DOESN'T make me change my mind about the relative guilt or innocence of nations . It WONT persuade me to become muslim in fact exactly the opposite .oh and it wont make me change my vote either .Sado Masochism is a strange thing isn't it ....why is it so often found amoungst those of a supposedly religious bent....... and by the way I firmly believe that a theocracy [hindu christian muslim bhuddist animist or jewish]should never be allowed access to nuclear energy and I would support any means of stopping that happening . ANY means .
Paul

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:08 am

yeah, there aren't too many you CAN trust with nuclear energy. we may have to take them all out....

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-07-09 01:08 ]

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:27 am

It's funny how intense people get about these debates even when they're fairly closely aligned politically and philosophically. If the world were full of Planet-Z'ers there would be only heated arguments, no wars!

On 2005-07-07 10:20, garyb wrote:
the fighting can solve nothing, for the ideas on both sides are based on false suppositions, which allow both to claim morality for muder.

Amen.

On 2005-07-08 20:13, Spirit wrote:
There will never be an end to war if people hold on to ancient resentments.

True!

On 2005-07-08 22:19, skwawks wrote:
what sort of complete low life arsehole could actually recruit and encourage someone to end their life in this useless way.

There are a lot of people in this world to whom I would like to pose that question. Mullahs, generals, guerrilla leaders -- they're all the same sinister homicidal breed in my books.

Good to see there are still enclaves of people who don't consider war to be the solution to every conceived "problem". You're a good lot, you know. It's an honour to be here amongst y'all!

Peace,

Johann

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:09 am

Good to see there are still enclaves of people who don't consider war to be the solution to every conceived "problem". You're a good lot, you know. It's an honour to be here amongst y'all!

I'll second that.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:07 am

I'll third that too.

It would be a nice world if we could all forgive and forget.

All sides could learn from this. The Americans AND the rest of the world.

I merely wanted to point out that to say that terrorist attacks are 'unprovoked' rather discounts the sick actions of American and European foreign policy throughout the last century and even further back. In saying this, I am not defending the terrorists either... just offering some reasons why you cannot just say that the attacks are unprovoked.

You might say that colonialism etc should not incite hatred now, however... colonialism is about extracting resources, and European countries did a hell of a lot of that. It is therefore the basis of the wealth distribution in the world today.

Now while we're all peace-loving people here, I have a feeling that if we had nothing, or very little, then we might not be so forgiving....

Of course, anyone that would, would be truly a saint, and we surely need more of these in the world.

[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-09 07:20 ]

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:29 am

Corruptness in the high spheres (consequently in the lower too); organized and powerfull; causing scarce credibility for politic power whose decisions are often suffered as impositions.

No justice in Palestyne and inside all the countries with puppet governments/dictatorships supported by external (and internal) commercial interests. Excessive difference between poverty and richness.

Lack of serious control in weapons trade.

Lack of diffusion of the peace culture.

Lack of developement in clean alternatives for the oil, with related political/economical and environmental problems. Culture based on consumerism and the waste of the resources.

I think it's not difficult to recognize these among<=(was "as" before editing) the main evils afflicting people of the world.

Fight them by VIOLENCE IS THE WRONG WAY!

I think everybody have to recognize in the everyday life the implications of these evils and FIGHT SAYING NO!

I think everybody have to peacefully express his own indignation towards the people anyway responsible for this lacks or guilts.

[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-09 10:43 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-09 18:37 ]