also, colonialism STILL is in existance so crimes of colonialism from way back STILL count unlike viking raids. vikings are no longer killing and raiding and they have not done so for a very long time. it is important to note that jews and palestinians NEVER fought prior to ww1(actually, since at least the time of the ottoman empire, they lived together very well indeed). the british set up a system there that assured war by promising all the land to jews AND arabs then leaving.
and how did the british get control of the "holy land"? through the crusades.
bombs in london
Thanks garyb, this was my point all along, and the reason why Spirit's flippant comments made me rather annoyed.
While not wishing to trivialize any of the issues, should we just forget such horrific incidents as the holocaust, the slavery and racism in America, the institutional racism in South Africa and Zimbabwe/Rhodesia (which only ended relatively recently), I could go on and on here.
My point is that if you're going to forgive and forget, then it's crucial to LEARN from the mistakes first. If you don't learn anything and just block it out of your consciousness because it's too painful, then the same mistakes will be made again and again...
Coming back to the crusades, these events are central to what is going on today. It's a tangled web of intrigue... one could invent a million conspiracy theories about it (anyone here read Foucault's Pendulum?
).
To ascertain the truth from these events would probably take a lifetime of study (even then 'truth' would not be guaranteed).
However, you can learn from these events... a crusade was exactly the same thing for Christians as Jihad is for Muslims.
Incidentally, Crusaders such as the Templars were total folk heroes in their day... even when they were denounced by King Philip of France and the Pope, they were seen as being the victims of a conspiracy. Of course, the immense riches and power envy involved had a lot to do with what happened back then.
I repeat again that while in an ideal world we should be able to forgive and forget and get on with our lives, I think it's rather idealistic to think this way. If we learn nothing from our mistakes, there can be no progress and no peace.
The depth of feeling on issues such as territory, sovereignty, nationality and religion can be immense. Sometimes it forms a massive part of your identity (again, in an ideal world this wouldn't happen, but to reject your culture is like saying 'Fuck You' to your parents and ancestors, unthinkable for most people). I just had a casual glance at the Canada Day thread (on which I do not feel especially qualified to comment, due to a lack of historical knowledge) - please have a look at it to see how these kind of issues can create really strong feelings. Of course strong feelings shouldn't necessarily lead to violence, but we are human beings, animals with passion, with a power for discrimination and wisdom that few people actually realise.
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-09 11:29 ]</font>
While not wishing to trivialize any of the issues, should we just forget such horrific incidents as the holocaust, the slavery and racism in America, the institutional racism in South Africa and Zimbabwe/Rhodesia (which only ended relatively recently), I could go on and on here.
My point is that if you're going to forgive and forget, then it's crucial to LEARN from the mistakes first. If you don't learn anything and just block it out of your consciousness because it's too painful, then the same mistakes will be made again and again...
Coming back to the crusades, these events are central to what is going on today. It's a tangled web of intrigue... one could invent a million conspiracy theories about it (anyone here read Foucault's Pendulum?
).To ascertain the truth from these events would probably take a lifetime of study (even then 'truth' would not be guaranteed).
However, you can learn from these events... a crusade was exactly the same thing for Christians as Jihad is for Muslims.
Incidentally, Crusaders such as the Templars were total folk heroes in their day... even when they were denounced by King Philip of France and the Pope, they were seen as being the victims of a conspiracy. Of course, the immense riches and power envy involved had a lot to do with what happened back then.
I repeat again that while in an ideal world we should be able to forgive and forget and get on with our lives, I think it's rather idealistic to think this way. If we learn nothing from our mistakes, there can be no progress and no peace.
The depth of feeling on issues such as territory, sovereignty, nationality and religion can be immense. Sometimes it forms a massive part of your identity (again, in an ideal world this wouldn't happen, but to reject your culture is like saying 'Fuck You' to your parents and ancestors, unthinkable for most people). I just had a casual glance at the Canada Day thread (on which I do not feel especially qualified to comment, due to a lack of historical knowledge) - please have a look at it to see how these kind of issues can create really strong feelings. Of course strong feelings shouldn't necessarily lead to violence, but we are human beings, animals with passion, with a power for discrimination and wisdom that few people actually realise.
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-09 11:29 ]</font>
Sure, colonialism still exists.On 2005-07-09 10:57, garyb wrote:
also, colonialism STILL is in existance so crimes of colonialism from way back STILL count unlike viking raids. vikings are no longer killing and raiding and they have not done so for a very long time.
Probably not in the strict sense of the word, as reported from the Britannica, I guess, considering that the present colonies have not recognized delegation of foreign states ruling.
Lot of people looks at Africa as the country much depauperated by colonialism; I think especially in human resources..But maybe this is not properly related to the colonialism.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-09 12:23 ]</font>
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ElectronicaDub
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: The Sprawl
- Contact:
garyb wrote:
reread the definition of insurgent. insurgents are, BY DEFINITION non-violent. you are repeating rhetoric. there is NO evidence that iraqis had anything to do with this. nothing personal, i am just poining out facts.
Have a look at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... n_bombings
I did not say that Iraqis were to blame for the bombs. You have to look at the bigger picture.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: electronicadub on 2005-07-09 13:36 ]</font>
reread the definition of insurgent. insurgents are, BY DEFINITION non-violent. you are repeating rhetoric. there is NO evidence that iraqis had anything to do with this. nothing personal, i am just poining out facts.
Have a look at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... n_bombings
I did not say that Iraqis were to blame for the bombs. You have to look at the bigger picture.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: electronicadub on 2005-07-09 13:36 ]</font>
Most people are reasonable in the world. I refused to sign the military registration card. That was technically a violation of the law and I am restricted from having a federal job for the rest of my life. If everyone refused to fight, there would be no war. No country, ideology or religion is worth killing or dying for.
Braincell, I too believe in the fundamental pacifist nature of the vast majority, if not all people.
The problem comes when a threat is perceived.
Fear is the most powerful weapon. Time and time again during this war on terror, the following famous quotation is brought up:
“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II.
(Apparently this statement was not recorded in the official transcription of the trial: apparently Goering said this in private):
http://www.answers.google.com/answers/t ... ?id=235519
The problem comes when a threat is perceived.
Fear is the most powerful weapon. Time and time again during this war on terror, the following famous quotation is brought up:
“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II.
(Apparently this statement was not recorded in the official transcription of the trial: apparently Goering said this in private):
http://www.answers.google.com/answers/t ... ?id=235519
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moosethree
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:00 pm
Islamic fascism is not based on resentments, or "poverty", or antiimperialism...it is based on interpreting the Koran harshest verses in the Koran in a literal way....to conquer by the sword, and return the whole world into a 7th century Imam ruled Islamic federation....this is not wild accusations but their openly stated belief and vowed purpose. They do not want to redress grievances against Israel they want to EXTERMINATE them. Thats what Fascists do.
Can you tell me a single reason how the Islamic fundamentalists are going to take over the world?
To take over the world you need vast armies, massive amounts of money behind you, and better technology than everyone else.
No matter what you may believe as a result of western media propoganda, the vast majority of the muslim world is not hungry for power and mastery over all other races and religions. They may not agree with western values (in many ways, who can blame them, looking at the diseased state of our societies), but equally they would rather just be left to lead their lives in peace and in the manner of their choosing.
Unfortunately, global capitalism does not allow this.
However, the vast majority of the muslim world still have the dignity to adapt and live peacefully. The people carrying out these attacks represent a *tiny* minority. How on earth can a ragtag bunch of terrorists, whose leader is on kidney dialysis and hiding in the tora bora mountains in the Hindu Kush
, hope to overthrow the western world? Even flying planes into buildings isn't really going to do it.
So sorry, but I just don't buy the 'Islamic Fascist threat' story.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-09 17:18 ]</font>
To take over the world you need vast armies, massive amounts of money behind you, and better technology than everyone else.
No matter what you may believe as a result of western media propoganda, the vast majority of the muslim world is not hungry for power and mastery over all other races and religions. They may not agree with western values (in many ways, who can blame them, looking at the diseased state of our societies), but equally they would rather just be left to lead their lives in peace and in the manner of their choosing.
Unfortunately, global capitalism does not allow this.
However, the vast majority of the muslim world still have the dignity to adapt and live peacefully. The people carrying out these attacks represent a *tiny* minority. How on earth can a ragtag bunch of terrorists, whose leader is on kidney dialysis and hiding in the tora bora mountains in the Hindu Kush
, hope to overthrow the western world? Even flying planes into buildings isn't really going to do it.So sorry, but I just don't buy the 'Islamic Fascist threat' story.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-09 17:18 ]</font>
I know I promised to try not to preach earlier, I'm finding this difficult. The reasons why:
1. media in my country sustaining the hysteria with constant news coverage
2. impending ID card system and monitoring tactics to combat terror
3. watching sheer ignorance and fear in action, even in my own family. When your own family, once also immigrants to the country, start blaming these attacks on the current wave of muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, then something is very deeply wrong.
1. media in my country sustaining the hysteria with constant news coverage
2. impending ID card system and monitoring tactics to combat terror
3. watching sheer ignorance and fear in action, even in my own family. When your own family, once also immigrants to the country, start blaming these attacks on the current wave of muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, then something is very deeply wrong.
Very nice article, pointing out some things which have got lost in all the hysteria:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne ... idity_.htm
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne ... idity_.htm
cool, but don't call them insurgents. guerillas, rebels, freedom fighters, madmen whatever, but not insurgents. the fact that the news uses this term exclusively should be the first sign that there is an untruth in the news when reporting these events.(insurgent is the "officially" approved of term that the military has chosen to use).On 2005-07-09 13:32, ElectronicaDub wrote:
garyb wrote:
reread the definition of insurgent. insurgents are, BY DEFINITION non-violent. you are repeating rhetoric. there is NO evidence that iraqis had anything to do with this. nothing personal, i am just poining out facts.
Have a look at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... n_bombings
I did not say that Iraqis were to blame for the bombs. You have to look at the bigger picture.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: electronicadub on 2005-07-09 13:36 ]</font>
i repeat, insurgents are NEVER violent BY DEFINITION. if the "coalition" forces are battling and killing insurgents, then they are murdering unarmed, NON-BELLIGERANT protesters. IF that IS the case, ANYTHING that happens in western cities should not raise an eyebrow but should be expected. this is not only to be expected from the families of these non-violent protesters seeking revenge, but also from the governments who value human life so little that they would kill unarmed dissidents. such armies are a threat to everyone including their own population......
also, it's important to note that ALL of the "hard line extremist" islamic groups have links to both nazi germany and the cia(formed from the Galen organization, started by Hitler's chief of soviet intelligence, Reinhold[possibly misspelled] Galen. this is a historical fact.) . in fact, alcaeda was set up through pakistani intelligence with cia money and this is well documented. if one doesn't have enemies, i guess one must manufacture them sometimes, especially if one is going to rule through random acts of violence.....again, by definition, "terrorism" is primarily a form of government. this guy has been documenting this behavior for over 20 years and here are enough archives to choke down for days and give one some research material: http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/DX
cochise-
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-07-09 19:24 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-07-09 19:35 ]</font>
Another random example of US terrorism:
http://www.albionmonitor.com/0506a/carriles2.html
This is just a small incident in a distinguished CIA terrorism history. For a brief summary, have a look at:
http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/CIAtimeline.html
http://www.albionmonitor.com/0506a/carriles2.html
This is just a small incident in a distinguished CIA terrorism history. For a brief summary, have a look at:
http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/CIAtimeline.html
good one yourself, darkr3zIn.
of course, this is NOT ani-US. the truth is the truth. if the US government has done wrong it has done wrong. if the president has been criminal, then he should be the FIRST to be tried and convicted, before any other citizen or anyone elsewhere in the world is tried for ANYTHING(by US courts, police or military). this is the true "patriotic" behavior.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-07-09 19:53 ]</font>
of course, this is NOT ani-US. the truth is the truth. if the US government has done wrong it has done wrong. if the president has been criminal, then he should be the FIRST to be tried and convicted, before any other citizen or anyone elsewhere in the world is tried for ANYTHING(by US courts, police or military). this is the true "patriotic" behavior.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-07-09 19:53 ]</font>
OMG - that's brought me to see the light! 
As an honorable US citizen and patriot It's obviously my duty to ensure our government, our people and our resources are immediately disabled, dismantled and distributed egually amongst those who bitch the loudest. Later I'll be killing myself because of the shame I've brought on myself for being born an American and taking part in our system of governement.
I'm excusing myself from the pollyanna bitchfest now. Have fun in Utopia - everyone play nice!
=====================================
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
-P. Townsend
=====================================
We live in a real world - come back to it.
-P. Amidala
As an honorable US citizen and patriot It's obviously my duty to ensure our government, our people and our resources are immediately disabled, dismantled and distributed egually amongst those who bitch the loudest. Later I'll be killing myself because of the shame I've brought on myself for being born an American and taking part in our system of governement.
I'm excusing myself from the pollyanna bitchfest now. Have fun in Utopia - everyone play nice!
=====================================
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
-P. Townsend
=====================================
We live in a real world - come back to it.
-P. Amidala
