Hurricane Katrina

[krizrox]

Wow! What intelligent, insightful and well-educated comments you all made.

And all this time I thought you guys were just amateur hobbyist wannabe musicians whose sole purpose in life was to smoke hash, drink beer and make funny noises with your modular synths. I didn't realize you were actually world leaders. It's downright thrilling to be surrounded by such a massive brain-trust. I'm going to pass your comments on to Washington right away. I think if we really apply your suggestions, we'll have solved all our problems by lunchtime. Thanks!

[Liquid Len]

Yawn. Another bigmouth telling us what we can and can't talk about. On the grounds that we are all too ignorant to know much about what we are talking about. Gee, I guess we all have to get back to work, now that we've been told.

It's sad what is happening in that city now, and it's also sad what happens every day across the world in some places. I have no criticism to offer what the US government is doing to try to fix the problem, I think they were caught off guard by this. I think the problem is made worse by short-term thinking that has been going on for the last 30 years.

[kensuguro]

Well, being from one of the Katrina stricken states, although just cat 1, I've seen some strange things that make me doubt about the government's preparation. Well, it's probably nobody's fault in particular, but just a series of misunderstanding and bad planning.

Anyway, the first thing I realized was that not too many people (especially the electric company) is prepared for hurricanes in Florida. I mean, for a state that gets hurricanes very often, the power system is very vulnerable. You'd think after all these years, they'd learn a lesson or two, like putting the wires in the ground? But no, you still get powerlines cut by trees being knocked down. Isn't that a bit basic for a such an experienced state?

Buildings are kind of strange too.. They're not built with hurricanes in mind. Okay, no building is water tight, but water leaking in from window sides? Water was also seeping in from a sliding door that leads to our balcony. This isn't because the water level was high, it was because the railing for the window/sliding door wasn't stuck to the ground, leaving little space for water to freely travel in to the house.

Anyway, these may sound like personal rants, but the also show that there's reason for disaster spread everywhere, in little amounts. My point is, Florida's preparation wasn't so good, and we're very experienced with hurricanes.. New Orleans must have been clueless without such experience. Second point is that people don't seem to learn from past hurricanes, or atleast the lessons don't seem to be implemented at all.

The aftermath for New Orleans.. heh, it was kind of expected... I'm surprised it's not becoming a global effort. I mean, people not eating since the hurricane? It's been a week already! Somebody better get there, fast! Who's gonna help? UN? This is a tough situation...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2005-09-02 07:31 ]</font>

[krizrox]

You guys are free to talk about whatever you want to. So am I. What I take exception to is uninformed, unsubstantiated dribble. I expect more from my fellow Pulsarians. What's so odd to me is that you guys are pretty good at getting to the root cause of problems, sharing knowledge, etc. But when it comes to world events and anything politcal in nature - especially those involving the US, your viewpoints are no different (better or worse) than anyone else. I can read a lot of the exact same nonsense on dozens of other forums. Armchair quarterbacks. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my thinking. Please, convince me otherwise.

And what problem are you referring to Liquid Len? Hurricanes? Flooding? Global warming? The Power Grid? Health Care? How would you fix those problems exactly?

Hey Ken - leave it to you to offer something more reasonable in nature. Thanks man. Anyway, I agree with everything you said/observed. It is amazing how seemingly unprepared we are for certain disasters in those states. It might help to have the viewpoint of local government here on such a discussion. I might suggest the following: the reason more hasn't been done boils down to simple economics. There's no incentive to do those types of things when the weather is good - and the weather is good most of the time. Frankly, I'm just not entirely sure there's a perfect solution (doesn't mean we shouldn't try of course). But when it comes to Mother Nature, well... we've got people building houses on the sides of active volcanos in Hawaii. Would you not agree that is ten times more stupid than building your house on the side of a river. Why doesn't the government step in and do something to protect those people from themselves?

We're no better or worse than any other "superpower" country in this regard. Perhaps it seems worse because of the sensationalistic way we report the news here in the US.

Yawn back at ya.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2005-09-02 08:33 ]</font>

[BingoTheClowno]

I'm sorry to say, but the current administration response to this disaster is freaking criminal in its indiference.
For the president of this nation to wait 3 days to summon help for the catastrophe in New Orleans, while pitching a guacamole drug plan or receiving a stupid guitar at a convention, is freaking unbelievable and racist. This administration shamed our nation in the whole world.

Of course, now, we find out that this freaking administration cut funds that where supposed to be used for levee fortification which were designed to withstand only CAT 3 hurricanes. We also are finding that this catastrophe was predicted.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2005-09-02 09:16 ]</font>

[BingoTheClowno]

This is what Mr. Bush was doing while people were drowning in New Orleans:








U.S. President George W. Bush smiles during a town hall-style meeting at a retirement community where he talked about Medicare prescription-drug benefits for senior citizens in El Mirage, Arizona August 29, 2005. Bush on Monday urged skeptical senior citizens to sign up for a new Medicare prescription drug benefit program, touting a choice of plans with monthly premiums as low as $20. REUTERS/Jeff Mitchell





President Bush holds up a birthday cake for Sen. John McCain , R-Ariz., upon his arrival at Luke Air Force Base in Glendale, Az., Monday, Aug. 29, 2005. McCain turned 69 Monday. Bush is traveling and will attend 'conversations' with experts and the elderly in El Mirage, Ariz., and Rancho Cucamonga, Calif., in an effort to sell older Americans on the value of a prescription drug benefit that begins next year for Medicare patients. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2005-09-02 10:26 ]</font>

[Liquid Len]

To be honest, I'd think it would be better that Bush personally stays away from the area. Getting out of the way and letting the relief agencies do their work would be better for the affected people. Why those relief agencies have not been as effective as they could have/should have been, is the real question.

[BingoTheClowno]

The answer is simple, FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) is now part of Department of Homeland Security.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2005-09-02 10:24 ]</font>

[Liquid Len]

On 2005-09-02 07:37, krizrox wrote:
You guys are free to talk about whatever you want to. So am I. What I take exception to is uninformed, unsubstantiated dribble. ....
Armchair quarterbacks. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my thinking. Please, convince me otherwise.

Puzzled - I don't know why I should HAVE to convince you otherwise. Where did anyone say that posters at planetz know more than anyone else? A lot of people would agree with a lot of what is said here, politically or otherwise. Does that make our opinions worth less? Does it make some very undeniable facts, somehow not true? As others have pointed out, if a topic doesn't interest you, don't read it. Don't slag off and insult everyone ("just amateur hobbyist wannabe musicians whose sole purpose in life was to smoke hash, drink beer and make funny noises with your modular synths") and expect them to be grateful for such a good bit of advice. It DOES come off as sounding well, rather smug and superior.

And what problem are you referring to Liquid Len? Hurricanes? Flooding? Global warming? The Power Grid? Health Care? How would you fix those problems exactly?

The problem I was referring to was the one this thread is about. If you're not sure of the context, read the thread from the start, maybe the title of the thread will help. I thought it would have been obvious.

And do I have an answer for everything? Actually, no. Rhetorical question, right?

[hubird]

New Orleans?
then what we had was Old Orleans?
(synical)

[BingoTheClowno]

Houston Chronicle 12/01/01



KEEPING ITS HEAD ABOVE WATER
New Orleans faces doomsday scenario


By ERIC BERGER
Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle Science Writer


New Orleans is sinking.
And its main buffer from a hurricane, the protective Mississippi River delta, is quickly eroding away, leaving the historic city perilously close to disaster.
So vulnerable, in fact, that earlier this year the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked the potential damage to New Orleans as among the three likeliest, most castastrophic disasters facing this country.
The other two? A massive earthquake in San Francisco, and, almost prophetically, a terrorist attack on New York City.
The New Orleans hurricane scenario may be the deadliest of all.
In the face of an approaching storm, scientists say, the city's less-than-adequate evacuation routes would strand 250,000 people or more, and probably kill one of 10 left behind as the city drowned under 20 feet of water. Thousands of refugees could land in Houston.
Economically, the toll would be shattering.
Southern Louisiana produces one-third of the country's seafood, one-fifth of its oil and one-quarter of its natural gas. The city's tourism, lifeblood of the French Quarter, would cease to exist. The Big Easy might never recover.
And, given New Orleans' precarious perch, some academics wonder if it should be rebuilt at all.
It's been 36 years since Hurricane Betsy buried New Orleans 8 feet deep. Since then a deteriorating ecosystem and increased development have left the city in an ever more precarious position. Yet the problem went unaddressed for decades by a laissez-faire government, experts said.
"To some extent, I think we've been lulled to sleep," said Marc Levitan, director of Louisiana State University's hurricane center.
Hurricane season ended Friday, and for the second straight year no hurricanes hit the United States. But the season nonetheless continued a long-term trend of more active seasons, forecasters said. Tropical Storm Allison became this country's most destructive tropical storm ever.
Yet despite the damage Allison wrought upon Houston, dropping more than 3 feet of water in some areas, a few days later much of the city returned to normal as bloated bayous drained into the Gulf of Mexico.
The same storm dumped a mere 5 inches on New Orleans, nearly overwhelming the city's pump system. If an Allison-type storm were to strike New Orleans, or a Category 3 storm or greater with at least 111 mph winds, the results would be cataclysmic, New Orleans planners said.
"Any significant water that comes into this city is a dangerous threat," Walter Maestri, Jefferson Parish emergency management director, told Scientific American for an October article.
"Even though I have to plan for it, I don't even want to think about the loss of life a huge hurricane would cause."
New Orleans is essentially a bowl ringed by levees that protect the city from the Mississippi River to its south and Lake Pontchartrain to the north. The bottom of the bowl is 14 feet below sea level, and efforts to keep it dry are only digging a deeper hole.
During routine rainfalls the city's dozens of pumps push water uphill into the lake. This, in turn, draws water from the ground, further drying the ground and sinking it deeper, a problem known as subsidence.
This problem also faces Houston as water wells have sucked the ground dry. Houston's solution is a plan to convert to surface drinking water. For New Orleans, eliminating pumping during a rainfall is not an option, so the city continues to sink.
A big storm, scientists said, would likely block four of five evacuation routes long before it hit. Those left behind would have no power or transportation, and little food or medicine, and no prospects for a return to normal any time soon.
"The bowl would be full," Levitan said. "There's simply no place for the water to drain."
Estimates for pumping the city dry after a huge storm vary from six to 16 weeks. Hundreds of thousands would be homeless, their residences destroyed.
The only solution, scientists, politicians and other Louisiana officials agree, is to take large-scale steps to minimize the risks, such as rebuilding the protective delta.
Every two miles of marsh between New Orleans and the Gulf reduces a storm surge -- which in some cases is 20 feet or higher -- by half a foot.
In 1990, the Breaux Act, named for its author, Sen. John Breaux, D-La., created a task force of several federal agencies to address the severe wetlands loss in coastal Louisiana. The act has brought about $40 million a year for wetland restoration projects, but it hasn't been enough.
"It's kind of been like trying to give aspirin to a cancer patient," said Len Bahr, director of Louisiana Gov. Mike Foster's coastal activities office.
The state loses about 25 square miles of land a year, the equivalent of about one football field every 15 minutes. The fishing industry, without marshes, swamps and fertile wetlands, could lose a projected $37 billion by the year 2050.
University of New Orleans researchers studied the impact of Breaux Act projects on the vanishing wetlands and estimated that only 2 percent of the loss has been averted. Clearly, Bahr said, there is a need for something much bigger. There is some evidence this finally may be happening.
A consortium of local, state and federal agencies is studying a $2 billion to $3 billion plan to divert sediment from the Mississippi River back into the delta. Because the river is leveed all the way to the Gulf, where sediment is dumped into deep water, nothing is left to replenish the receding delta.
Other possible projects include restoration of barrier reefs and perhaps a large gate to prevent Lake Pontchartrain from overflowing and drowning the city.
All are multibillion-dollar projects. A plan to restore the Florida Everglades attracted $4 billion in federal funding, but the state had to match it dollar for dollar. In Louisiana, so far, there's only been a willingness to match 15 or 25 cents.
"Our state still looks for a 100 percent federal bailout, but that's just not going to happen," said University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland, a delta expert.
"We have an image and credibility problem. We have to convince our country that they need to take us seriously, that they can trust us to do a science-based restoration program."

http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm

[krizrox]

On 2005-09-02 11:04, Liquid Len wrote:

On 2005-09-02 07:37, krizrox wrote:
You guys are free to talk about whatever you want to. So am I. What I take exception to is uninformed, unsubstantiated dribble. ....
Armchair quarterbacks. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my thinking. Please, convince me otherwise.

Puzzled - I don't know why I should HAVE to convince you otherwise. Where did anyone say that posters at planetz know more than anyone else? A lot of people would agree with a lot of what is said here, politically or otherwise. Does that make our opinions worth less? Does it make some very undeniable facts, somehow not true? As others have pointed out, if a topic doesn't interest you, don't read it. Don't slag off and insult everyone ("just amateur hobbyist wannabe musicians whose sole purpose in life was to smoke hash, drink beer and make funny noises with your modular synths") and expect them to be grateful for such a good bit of advice. It DOES come off as sounding well, rather smug and superior.

And what problem are you referring to Liquid Len? Hurricanes? Flooding? Global warming? The Power Grid? Health Care? How would you fix those problems exactly?

The problem I was referring to was the one this thread is about. If you're not sure of the context, read the thread from the start, maybe the title of the thread will help. I thought it would have been obvious.

And do I have an answer for everything? Actually, no. Rhetorical question, right?

I openly apologize for previously rude comments made. That was uncalled for. I'm sorry.

I don't have a problem with anyone voicing their opinion on the subject of this disaster (or anything else for that matter) but to use this thread as a jumping off point for some bizarre anti-American rhetoric is just sad. I realize not everyone shares the same opinion.

Getting back specifically to your statements - they made no sense. And you're right - you can post whatever nonsensical ramblings here that you want. And I, in return, can respond. Funny how that works ain't it.

To blame the Fed's or anyone else at this point is just silly. There is no one to blame. Better dams or whatever would have had virtually no impact from what I can tell. Did you actually look at the pictures? The entire region is under water. Do you think a few dams were going to somehow stop a Cat 5 storm? Look, I'm no expert. But I'm not an idiot either.

And another thing - this reference to the Asian Tsunami - No one remembers all the stories about looting and raping and pillaging and mugging that went on during that time? Give me a break. That doesn't justify it happening here - or anywhere. It's just a sad fact of human life - it can happen anywhere.

This finger pointing and looking for a government scapegoat - sad sad sad. Do humanity a favor - donate a few bucks to the Red Cross or any organization that helps the sick and needy. Do something positive with your lives instead of wasting it here with such dribble.

[garyb]

the poor have been abandoned. period. those with money have lost their possessions, but they are alive, fed and out of the danger zone. the poor have no water, no food and no shelter for days with no relief in sight. i'd loot in that situation. there are some lunatics stealing plasma screen tvs, but most are taking food and water.....

the comment about maintasining order above helping people and cleaning up the dead is right on target. eugenics all over again.

[Liquid Len]

Far poorer countries (e.g. Bangladesh) deal with worse flooding is a far superior way than this!

Can you elaborate?

[astroman]

well, I have to admit I completely underestimated this when the hurricane news first showed up.
Then there's always this focus on New Orleans, a city - twice as big as my hometown, nothing unusual.

...so what, I think - I'd move my butt away from that place under all circumstances, naively considering the distance to the next neighbour town here...

then I realized that number of square kilometres
the affected area has the size of the complete former Federal Republic of Germany or as Great Britain - holy sh*t

shocked, Tom

[Guest]

Vacation is Over... an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
http://www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.

[narly]

Kinda hard for the agencies/aid workers/air lift teams to be in there helping when being shot at and attacked. Order must be established for reasonable assistance efforts to proceed... People are basically animals and the few nut-jobs who are over-the-top agressives kinda f@#* it up for everyone (in this situation or many others I'm sure you can think of).

No shoot-to-kill order was given, but I believe discussion of harsh crackdown on looters was not in the direction of those seeking sustinence, only those pilfering for profit. The inventories of any flooded food stores is basically written off already - the retailer would be unable to reclaim most of the stock for later sale. Let 'em have the stuff - not like they can stockpile the stuff for profit anyway.

A terrible situation no matter how you slice it. It's a shame so much effort has to be directed to establishing blame and not resolving the immediate crises and the establishment of long-term solutions based on lessons learned (in an admittedly hard-headed way).

Regarding blame - the problem w/ New Orleans levees has been known for decades. Who should be the first in the inquisition? By going down that long costly (mega $) path, what do we expect to attain that we don't already know?

God bless those who still suffer or are in peril. May those taking advantage of the situation have some sort of epiphany and realize the costs of their actions and then stop.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: narly on 2005-09-02 15:16 ]</font>

[garyb]

the funny thing is that gbushes own people told him years ago that the levees in new orleans needed to be reenforced in the way that had been done in the Netherlands. instead, as mentioned in the "letter" above, he cut the budget. this is a disaster that, if not welcomed, was forseen and no steps were taken for anybodies protection. the government wants unquestioning loyalty, but in return gives no protection. what's next, U.N. troops? the situation down there is, in many places, worse than a "third world" country.

we in the USA like to think of ourselves as good, caring people. it seems that those in charge however, seem mainly interested in oil prices rather than humans stuck on a peice of highway, surrounded by water, with no shelter food or drinking water for days and filmed in close-up by news crews, because no one could even air drop them some water and an easy-up awning so that they could get out of the sun. of course, it was just some poor black folk.....before the bombing in afghanistan, so that people didn't feel too guilty, they dropped supplies with regularity. for their own, nothing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-02 15:26 ]</font>

[BingoTheClowno]

On 2005-09-02 15:12, narly wrote: By going down that long costly (mega $) path, what do we expect to attain that we don't already know?

What are you talking about? What "we don't already know"?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2005-09-02 15:30 ]</font>

[narly]

Ummm - What we already know is that there is a lot of work to be done to help/save the victims of a natural disaster. That there is much work to be done in reconstructing what is feasible to be reconstructed. That there is a lot to be done to prevent recurrance (there and possibly elsewhere). The work to be done is defined and before us - time to get busy.

Will endless hearings, political grandstanding and fingerpointing going to help get that done any faster or with greater efficiency? Has it happened in this way for the case of 9/11? I think the converse is true. The only purpose these actions will serve is to feed the political machine we all love to hate. Yet some still demand that this happen. Sadly predictable.