Me$$iah's NO INSULTS religion thread

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:09 pm

On 2005-12-30 10:04, paulrmartin wrote:
On 2005-12-29 20:38, piddi wrote:
in fact liquid, if i dont remember wrong, some one on this forum was corrected for saying merry christmas instead of saying happy holidays ( which is the correct way if u ask some fuckups)

if u ask me id nevermind a happy hannukka, merrry christmas or whatever, it all means " have a good time".

I know one member who was chastised by another because his signature reads "PRAISE JAH"!

The lack of spirituality in the world is equivalent to the amount of violence. Education should be better thought out, mostly spiritual education. Parents today just don't have the time for it unless they start very early in their childrens' lives. I'm speaking of the western world wherein both parents have to work in order to survive the economic strain.

Agree with you here.It's all about what you can do for some one otherwise your worthless.
This is not the fault of people though but the global machine that drives us.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:30 pm

so when you guys say children needs spirituality i take it you mean school should teach them to believe in SOMETHING, not nessecarily Jesus, Muhammed or UFOs?

i mean, compared to the "amount of violence in this world", religion is a big frigging reason for that violence to happen??

i would rather have schools focus on intercultural understanding rather than a specific religion. and im not talking a master degree here, just the basic understanding that "no, unfortunatly our religion is no more true than any other". its just a question of making you feel well.

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:42 pm

The difficult part with religions is to pick the pearls in the pile of rubbish...

The more you grow aware of what true Compassion means, the easier it gets though! What I realized is that every religion is primarily based on Love and freedom from human distress. What goes against that is the human conception's cancer that corrupted the original teachings. Surprisingly, a lot of good things have come through to us and are still clearly stated in many Sacred Texts... Nevertheless, without an open mind and at least a clear desire to know the truth about it, one will hardly pierce through his/her own misconceptions to see the pearls of wisdom at hand!

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:27 am

I find the need for absolutes and the absence of a relativistic approach the most powerful motivation for violence, no matter if the dogma is god, democracy, race supremacy or whatever, it must be admitted, however, that religions have always had some violent aspects in human history, or at least have been a good excuse to enslave and slaughter.

Personally I have a trouble with the act of "believing", if I don't know something I prefer to admit it, and I can't trust anyone who speaks of any "truth" that can't be empirically prooved.

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:17 am

On 2005-12-31 05:27, alfonso wrote:
I find the need for absolutes and the absence of a relativistic approach the most powerful motivation for violence, no matter if the dogma is god, democracy, race supremacy or whatever, it must be admitted, however, that religions have always had some violent aspects in human history, or at least have been a good excuse to enslave and slaughter.

Personally I have a trouble with the act of "believing", if I don't know something I prefer to admit it, and I can't trust anyone who speaks of any "truth" that can't be empirically prooved.

Yeah, well put. An adult talking about 'faith', in the sense of believing something without having a good reason to believe it, rather than being innocent and childlike, is one of the more frightening things in this world. How can such a person be reasoned with ? That's one of the aspects of Christianity I have the most problem with.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:31 am

On 2005-12-30 18:30, piddi wrote:
so when you guys say children needs spirituality i take it you mean school should teach them to believe in SOMETHING, not nessecarily Jesus, Muhammed or UFOs?

i mean, compared to the "amount of violence in this world", religion is a big frigging reason for that violence to happen??

i would rather have schools focus on intercultural understanding rather than a specific religion. and im not talking a master degree here, just the basic understanding that "no, unfortunatly our religion is no more true than any other". its just a question of making you feel well.

Completely disagree with you.What do children do to other children.Insult them about their weight the way they look how poor they are how much better one is from the other.
Where do people get the idea religion causes all this trouble.Europe is at peace now wheras it was at war.It's a Christian continent still but we've common interests now that's why.
Why isn't money that's the cause of war??
Don't people use religion to manipulate and instigate these wars.Look at these poor Muslims being manipulated by their superiors(who all have their nice parties with woman and drugs and drink etc)while they sit back and give orders because they have the control and the strength.Who are the soldiers normally? The poor people,who keep the identity of the race,culture or creed that is signified.Do you see senators sons in the army for too long in dangerous spots?Why??
If you look at human develeopment a child believes in fantasy,flying like a bird,being superman.As he gets older he becomes scientific.That's why religion is important for our upbringing an grounding where science is good for our stability and understanding.Two different parts of the brain which balance very well.
If either becomes extreme the psyche loses balance and becomes unstable.
The understanding of religion like most things is understood through experience.
Being told not to waste your food when you're young is a good teaching isn't it?Or would you prefer to turn into one of these animals that throws food around like a game?
Teachings branch out into older age and create certain human actions.
If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:36 am

On 2005-12-30 20:42, eliam wrote:
The difficult part with religions is to pick the pearls in the pile of rubbish...

The more you grow aware of what true Compassion means, the easier it gets though! What I realized is that every religion is primarily based on Love and freedom from human distress. What goes against that is the human conception's cancer that corrupted the original teachings. Surprisingly, a lot of good things have come through to us and are still clearly stated in many Sacred Texts... Nevertheless, without an open mind and at least a clear desire to know the truth about it, one will hardly pierce through his/her own misconceptions to see the pearls of wisdom at hand!

Couldn't have said it better.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:36 am

The main problem with mainstream religions is that writings are interpreted and commented by powerful men. Too many times have these people dragged their "faithful" down a wrong path.

A saying has stuck in my mind: "Truth is Truth"(from the movie "Enemy mine"). I believe that everyone regardless of their ethnicity or education can become aware of this. The main obstacle would be to get rid of soddy "preachers" of whatever faith and denomination. A Higher Power does not need to have His or Her Word spread by some "man of God"(by god I mean all names that refer to a higher power). The truth lies within every being. Personally, I have this twinge in my neck when I something is wrong so I back off.

I don't know the truth and will probably only know it once I die. I can only do the best with what I know and feel.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:41 am

On 2005-12-31 05:27, alfonso wrote:
I find the need for absolutes and the absence of a relativistic approach the most powerful motivation for violence, no matter if the dogma is god, democracy, race supremacy or whatever, it must be admitted, however, that religions have always had some violent aspects in human history, or at least have been a good excuse to enslave and slaughter.

Personally I have a trouble with the act of "believing", if I don't know something I prefer to admit it, and I can't trust anyone who speaks of any "truth" that can't be empirically prooved.

What about the Tibetan monks who were nearly cleansed by the Chinese armies(who told the Dalai Lama,that religion is a cancer).
Where can you say that Buddism has caused this misery?
Dalai Lama said the Christianity is very close to Buddism wheras they don't believe in a Creator,I believe.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:49 am

Are you speaking of the Muslims who were beaten, murdered & violently thrown out of their homes & out of Spain by the catholic church during the Spanish Inquisition ?

Are you speaking of the Muslims who've been used, manipulated, sold out, bombed & murdered in the middle east to secure control of most of the World's remaining & depleating oil resources, but covered up in a filthy shrowd of religeous 'do gooding' by certain supposedly religeously 'chosen' world leaders under the oh so obvious cover-up name of "War 0n Terror"??

Are these the Muslims you speak of ?

If not, which ones?

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:20 am

The Inquisition and whatever repressions are perfect examples of what I wrote above about powerful men. Just for the sake of accuracy, jews were also persecuted during the Inquisition. This is not the topic though

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:22 am

If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!

You only have to read some of that nut's writings to see that his god WAS the Christian god.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

He justified much of his antisemitism by using Christian and Biblical arguments. It's not like jew-hatred was unknown in Europe before him! Christians have claimed that he was an atheist, humanist, etc, 'and that proves how evil atheism is' but according to any history i've read, is simply nonsense. The sorry tale of cooperation from the Catholic church is another clear historical reality which the Catholics have denied ever since it happened.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:27 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/65889.stm

The catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-12-31 08:29 ]

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:30 am

On 2005-12-31 08:27, paulrmartin wrote:
THe catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

I'm not talking about extenuating circumstances, just about history. Saying "OK, we did that, we're sorry" is different than saying "that never happened, in fact, quite the opposite". I'm sure as time passes, and people become emotionally detached from these events, Christians will be able to admit to this history more and more.

[ This Message was edited by: Liquid Len on 2005-12-31 08:38 ]

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:43 am

@ music maniac

i dont think we disagree that much in fact. but heres a few quick points

first of all, please bear in mind that the balkans are part of Europe as well.if you, like me, was in Kosovo the period of 98 - 99, you would now europe has its wars as well.

i also meant by my post that the PARENTS should be the right persons to take care of its childrens religion, while TEACHERS Should be the ones who puts it into perspective, learning children to be curious about it, ask questions, and not least GET NEUTRAL ANSWERS regarding other religions.

and dont forget, nationalism mixed into this isnt good.

or as plato would have put it:
Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion has no hold on the mind. Therefore do not use compulsion, but let early education be rather a sort of amusement; this will better enable you to find out the natural bent of the child. -Plato

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:25 am

On 2005-12-31 07:49, Shroomz wrote:
Are you speaking of the Muslims who were beaten, murdered & violently thrown out of their homes & out of Spain by the catholic church during the Spanish Inquisition ?

Are you speaking of the Muslims who've been used, manipulated, sold out, bombed & murdered in the middle east to secure control of most of the World's remaining & depleating oil resources, but covered up in a filthy shrowd of religeous 'do gooding' by certain supposedly religeously 'chosen' world leaders under the oh so obvious cover-up name of "War 0n Terror"??

Are these the Muslims you speak of ?

If not, which ones?

Ah! let's talk about the other side of the coin.If we are talking about Arabs that invaded Spain and the Jews that were allowed to flourish in Spain Yes.
The thing is if you bite the hand that feeds you then you are asking for trouble.
As someone who has been born in UK from a different religion and culture would it be advisable to destroy the actual system that let you in?
The Arabs weren't very nice during their empire and had business with the Jewish peoples in Africa which dealt with slave trade.
It is much darker than you think and is not,as I repeat, based on religous teachings but economics and power.
If you really believe the problems of the Middle East are based on Religion ask me again after Oil has run out or is not needed anymore then we'll see.
You'll find Muslim people more alike Eastern Christians in some mentality than Western Christians.
Also the Catholic church has attacked the Eastern part and robbed it of its riches.This is part of the Norman period which is another story.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:28 am

On 2005-12-31 08:22, Liquid Len wrote:
If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!
You only have to read some of that nut's writings to see that his god WAS the Christian god.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

He justified much of his antisemitism by using Christian and Biblical arguments. It's not like jew-hatred was unknown in Europe before him! Christians have claimed that he was an atheist, humanist, etc, 'and that proves how evil atheism is' but according to any history i've read, is simply nonsense. The sorry tale of cooperation from the Catholic church is another clear historical reality which the Catholics have denied ever since it happened.

Don't deny Jew's suffering but which places have they become most affluent.Isn't the U.S.A. a Christian constitution?So how comes they're not suffering there.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:33 am

Unfortunately Music Manic, you did not fully understand my words. You have without a doubt, put words in my mouth (so to speak)

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:36 am

On 2005-12-31 08:27, paulrmartin wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/65889.stm

The catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-12-31 08:29 ]

Yes but that's the diference between knowing if you believe in what you've been taught.
If you are forced then you're a puppy,if you stand up and are willing to lose your life instead of having someone make you change your belief then you truly believe.
The Russians said no the Greeks the British etc.
On that point the Russians,also being Christians were still not trusted by Europe and USA.
This is my point that economy and nationality is stronger than religion.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:40 am

Just one more thing before I wish you all a Happy New Year:
We cannot blanket it all with one name.It all breaks down and gets complex.
Look at the time the Italian army stopped castration of the Catholic church.All the same people but with different ideas.
What the hell was all that about?Just because the pope liked the sound of the voice.Now it's easy to find it laughable now but very vicious and nasty?Religious my arse! Sick and power hungry more like.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!