Me$$iah's NO INSULTS religion thread

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:49 am

Are you speaking of the Muslims who were beaten, murdered & violently thrown out of their homes & out of Spain by the catholic church during the Spanish Inquisition ?

Are you speaking of the Muslims who've been used, manipulated, sold out, bombed & murdered in the middle east to secure control of most of the World's remaining & depleating oil resources, but covered up in a filthy shrowd of religeous 'do gooding' by certain supposedly religeously 'chosen' world leaders under the oh so obvious cover-up name of "War 0n Terror"??

Are these the Muslims you speak of ?

If not, which ones?

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:20 am

The Inquisition and whatever repressions are perfect examples of what I wrote above about powerful men. Just for the sake of accuracy, jews were also persecuted during the Inquisition. This is not the topic though

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:22 am

If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!

You only have to read some of that nut's writings to see that his god WAS the Christian god.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

He justified much of his antisemitism by using Christian and Biblical arguments. It's not like jew-hatred was unknown in Europe before him! Christians have claimed that he was an atheist, humanist, etc, 'and that proves how evil atheism is' but according to any history i've read, is simply nonsense. The sorry tale of cooperation from the Catholic church is another clear historical reality which the Catholics have denied ever since it happened.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:27 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/65889.stm

The catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-12-31 08:29 ]

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:30 am

On 2005-12-31 08:27, paulrmartin wrote:
THe catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

I'm not talking about extenuating circumstances, just about history. Saying "OK, we did that, we're sorry" is different than saying "that never happened, in fact, quite the opposite". I'm sure as time passes, and people become emotionally detached from these events, Christians will be able to admit to this history more and more.

[ This Message was edited by: Liquid Len on 2005-12-31 08:38 ]

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:43 am

@ music maniac

i dont think we disagree that much in fact. but heres a few quick points

first of all, please bear in mind that the balkans are part of Europe as well.if you, like me, was in Kosovo the period of 98 - 99, you would now europe has its wars as well.

i also meant by my post that the PARENTS should be the right persons to take care of its childrens religion, while TEACHERS Should be the ones who puts it into perspective, learning children to be curious about it, ask questions, and not least GET NEUTRAL ANSWERS regarding other religions.

and dont forget, nationalism mixed into this isnt good.

or as plato would have put it:
Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion has no hold on the mind. Therefore do not use compulsion, but let early education be rather a sort of amusement; this will better enable you to find out the natural bent of the child. -Plato

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:25 am

On 2005-12-31 07:49, Shroomz wrote:
Are you speaking of the Muslims who were beaten, murdered & violently thrown out of their homes & out of Spain by the catholic church during the Spanish Inquisition ?

Are you speaking of the Muslims who've been used, manipulated, sold out, bombed & murdered in the middle east to secure control of most of the World's remaining & depleating oil resources, but covered up in a filthy shrowd of religeous 'do gooding' by certain supposedly religeously 'chosen' world leaders under the oh so obvious cover-up name of "War 0n Terror"??

Are these the Muslims you speak of ?

If not, which ones?

Ah! let's talk about the other side of the coin.If we are talking about Arabs that invaded Spain and the Jews that were allowed to flourish in Spain Yes.
The thing is if you bite the hand that feeds you then you are asking for trouble.
As someone who has been born in UK from a different religion and culture would it be advisable to destroy the actual system that let you in?
The Arabs weren't very nice during their empire and had business with the Jewish peoples in Africa which dealt with slave trade.
It is much darker than you think and is not,as I repeat, based on religous teachings but economics and power.
If you really believe the problems of the Middle East are based on Religion ask me again after Oil has run out or is not needed anymore then we'll see.
You'll find Muslim people more alike Eastern Christians in some mentality than Western Christians.
Also the Catholic church has attacked the Eastern part and robbed it of its riches.This is part of the Norman period which is another story.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:28 am

On 2005-12-31 08:22, Liquid Len wrote:
If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!
You only have to read some of that nut's writings to see that his god WAS the Christian god.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

He justified much of his antisemitism by using Christian and Biblical arguments. It's not like jew-hatred was unknown in Europe before him! Christians have claimed that he was an atheist, humanist, etc, 'and that proves how evil atheism is' but according to any history i've read, is simply nonsense. The sorry tale of cooperation from the Catholic church is another clear historical reality which the Catholics have denied ever since it happened.

Don't deny Jew's suffering but which places have they become most affluent.Isn't the U.S.A. a Christian constitution?So how comes they're not suffering there.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:33 am

Unfortunately Music Manic, you did not fully understand my words. You have without a doubt, put words in my mouth (so to speak)

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:36 am

On 2005-12-31 08:27, paulrmartin wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/65889.stm

The catholic church was stuck between a rock and a hard place during WWII. Remember that Mussolini was Hitler's ally and it would have been suicide to go against the Nazis at that time.

But now we are getting into politics of religion...

[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-12-31 08:29 ]

Yes but that's the diference between knowing if you believe in what you've been taught.
If you are forced then you're a puppy,if you stand up and are willing to lose your life instead of having someone make you change your belief then you truly believe.
The Russians said no the Greeks the British etc.
On that point the Russians,also being Christians were still not trusted by Europe and USA.
This is my point that economy and nationality is stronger than religion.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:40 am

Just one more thing before I wish you all a Happy New Year:
We cannot blanket it all with one name.It all breaks down and gets complex.
Look at the time the Italian army stopped castration of the Catholic church.All the same people but with different ideas.
What the hell was all that about?Just because the pope liked the sound of the voice.Now it's easy to find it laughable now but very vicious and nasty?Religious my arse! Sick and power hungry more like.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:46 am

On 2005-12-31 10:28, Music Manic wrote:
On 2005-12-31 08:22, Liquid Len wrote:
If you look at Plato's republic he talks about dicators and these oppressive regimes and how they come about.They all root into how a person is allowed to distribute power.Look what Hitler did when so,and he was educated with beliefs that God is dead etc!!!!
You only have to read some of that nut's writings to see that his god WAS the Christian god.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

He justified much of his antisemitism by using Christian and Biblical arguments. It's not like jew-hatred was unknown in Europe before him! Christians have claimed that he was an atheist, humanist, etc, 'and that proves how evil atheism is' but according to any history i've read, is simply nonsense. The sorry tale of cooperation from the Catholic church is another clear historical reality which the Catholics have denied ever since it happened.

Don't deny Jew's suffering but which places have they become most affluent.Isn't the U.S.A. a Christian constitution?So how comes they're not suffering there.

OK then, but what does this answer have to do with what I typed?

Post by **garyb** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:00 am

leaders who claim to be "christian" rarely are.(see bohemian grove) in fact, the ancient god bel, also known as marduck(who the ancient king nimrod said he was, kinda like calling ones self me$$iah

)also known as chronus, father of the gods, fathering the king of the gods, zues(deus in latin),known by the name saturn in rome(christmas is the combination of the festival of tammuz who was nimrod's son through divine virgin insemination via the power of the sun god and saturnalia, festival of the father.) has never gone out of favor with the leaders, regardless of the religion given to the followers.

an interesting sidebar to the name saturn(the family line of all the european leaders is merovingian, and they come from a town near the ardennes called stenay, once called satanicum), is that saturn is the LATE latin spelling. in early latin the name would have been spelled s-a-t-a-n. satanists have been preaching that man is evolving into godhood for a long time, and even trying to force it through ritual(places like the bohemian grove) and breeding(see madame blavatsky's treatises on race. see also poodles, and eugenics and ayn rand). you can see what a nice world satanic thought has created, while blaming trouble on the results of satanic thought(religions and secret orders).

true satanists must be in charge of serious amounts of power befitting their supposed godhood, all others are wannabees, to be manipulated and ruled and used...

the preceeding is not my opinion, just a very simplified retelling of fact. my opinion is

the true creator of the universe is not troubled by any of our foolishness, neither nessessarily amused...

the word "messiah", comes from the hebrew "moshiach", which comes from the egyptian "mus-hus". the egyptian kings were anointed by the oil of the "water dragon" or crocodile. the name of the oil was "mus-hus". when the israelites left egypt and set up a king, they used a model they knew. the difference between the israelite kings and the other nations(all use the egyptian model, based on nimrod)is that the israelite kings were annointed with olive oil and were NOT devine(the bible tells of saul's, david's, solomon's, etc. wrongdoings. gods don't do wrong). moshiach(hebrew) was never god, just the tribal ruler. greeks and romans, however, see things differently. messiah, has a devine interpretation, which is babylonian/egyptian mystery school in lineage.

a person's belief in god is not the cause of horrors, rather it is the calculated manipulation of that belief combined with obfuscation and ignorance. violence in the name of god or any other socio/political/religious reason is just part of an age old program of manipulation, breeding and control that is well documented for those who care to find out....none of this has anything to do with the creator or creation of the universe, except that it is another thing that can happen.

next....

about the jews, there are some jews who, like some non-jews have aligned themselves with certain roads to power and are corrupt and wicked. they had lots of money during ww2 and finaced adolph and his "final solution". their holdings were not touched during the inquisition either. common people went to mass graves just like common germans, poles, ethiopians, chinese, americans, congolese etc. this has nothing to do with "judaism", "christianity", "buddhism" or any other ism EXCEPT maybe "occultism" or the world of secrets. think of the mass death as a fitting sacrifice to moloch, god of death(hey, there's old bel/baal/beelzebub/shaitan/satan/saturn/shiva guy, again!

)

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-12-31 11:10 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:27 pm

1st Class Gary, truely !!

Cheers all, we're off out to celebrate life's falseness !!

Post by **garyb** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:31 pm

no problems there, at least in theory....

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:54 pm

On 2005-12-31 07:41, Music Manic wrote:
On 2005-12-31 05:27, alfonso wrote:
I find the need for absolutes and the absence of a relativistic approach the most powerful motivation for violence, no matter if the dogma is god, democracy, race supremacy or whatever, it must be admitted, however, that religions have always had some violent aspects in human history, or at least have been a good excuse to enslave and slaughter.

Personally I have a trouble with the act of "believing", if I don't know something I prefer to admit it, and I can't trust anyone who speaks of any "truth" that can't be empirically prooved.
What about the Tibetan monks who were nearly cleansed by the Chinese armies(who told the Dalai Lama,that religion is a cancer).

In fact the Chinese system can be very well defined as a dogmatic system.
For what I know, most of the buddhist scools are not dogmatic at all, or by far the less dogmatic of all religions, hence their peaceful tradition. Your example confirms what I say.

You've also said:
"This is my point that economy and nationality is stronger than religion."

The word "religion" comes from the latin "religio" that means literally "life style", it's a very large concept, but we are mainly relating to the monotheistic traditions that have legitimated incredible forms of violence during history. I totally agree with the fact that the real reasons of that violence have been power and money but you will agree with me that only the control of minds that dogmatic religions provided made possible that large masses accepted those games....

Dogmatic religions are not only "god" religions. The desperate consumistic need to conform in a way of life, making money no matter how, the belief of a racial supremacy (more diffused than you would suspect in our society) as well as various -ism's that flourished in the last 2 centuries are forms of dogmatic religions, dogmatic systems that require a doubtless acceptation.

In fact christian religion has been the law and the source of identity for many centuries, absolutistic systems were legitimated by absolutistic religions, there was a perfect coincidence of religion and what you call economy and nationalism, everything from the distribution of power to the properties of the lords, to the slavery was regulated under the principles of divine right we have had centuries of theocracy. The result of this domination of religion has been the triumph of violence in every aspect of life, the family, the individual beliefs, sexuality, repression of science, rivers of blood have been caused in the name of god.

But today there are new forms of religion, worship of god has become a sort of "new-age" simulation, people claim to be christian but everyone is used to eat a meal while looking third world babies starving on tv without a doubt on their life style, the real god is money and egoism and the traditional worship has become a form of self-swindle...this at mass levels naturally, with exceptions, of course. But exceptions are just exceptions, the rule is that dogmatism brings violence because is cultivated by those who can't stand the doubts and fear the differences. And the system seems to invent everyday a new way to propagate fear and to create new demons.

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:56 pm

So why do I say Im a Satanist, when without a god belief the term is uslesss?

Well. Yes its true that I am an athiest, but that just says what I dont beleive, not what I do. So in order to clarify what I do believe
I use that term. Satanist. I like it, it has impact.
Its true that I have no belief in an all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent being that created everything, and has an interest
in how we behave, an out immortal soul. All that seems like ancient stories, the begginings of the quest for knowlege and understanding.
And they served mankind well. Their time is passed. Religion was a way of explaining the world. Wheres does the sun go? Why are there seasons?
why are we here? etc. It did its job, now we have better tools to answer these questions. Science. As scientific knowledge has increased
then God has retreated. Now its time to let him die. Nor do I think theres some kind of creator being that just set it all up, and let it fall,
that just seems pointless.

Im my world view, the nearest thing to the divine is myself. I am the reason Im alive, I create my destiny, I know all there is to know about me
If anything is worthy of my worship, then surely it is me (and maybe my godess)
I think everyone is divine, each being in control of their own lives. An old addage which sums up this view is:-
'Every man and every woman is a star'
That obviously is a famous quote from the man who almost defines satanism, or at least in public opinion anyway.
Then thers the infamous 'Church of Satan' and the Satanic Bible' as written by LeVay, which defines Satanism as a belief
in the individual. And really is a form of Humanism, with the realities of the species thrown in.

Now whilst I am not a follower of LaVey nor of Crowley nor any of the great occult writers, I do indeed seem to share a lot of opinions
with these types..... so I guess if the cap fits

Then of course there is the use of the word itself, which really explains why iI call myself a satanist.
What does satan mean? It means adversary. Opponent
Why bring this up? It also makes a great description for me.
I utterly oppose the Abrahamic God vehermently. If the Hellenistic Gods were the current flavour, I would oppose them.etc.
The ancient stories have been used for far too long to hold back the advancement of humanity. Yes they played their role, but their time is passed.
Its time to move beyond the need for a 'super parent'.
Then if you look at the scriptures of the Abrahamic god then there are so many 'problems' that it seems unreal to me that so many people
still beleive, that their particular book is the absolute truth.
So I oppose religion. Im its adversary.
The biggest problem with organised religion obviously is scripture. That is because people must be involved in translation distrbution etc.
An people are interested in themselves. Their very personal God. Power, greed and corruption.

I certainly think of my self as luciferian [lucifer - the bearer of light] As I hope to spread wisdom to all I meet. But I see everone as lucifarian,
because I can learn from everyone. Every one I meet brings new knowledge, experience or light in the dark

So why do I call myself a satanist? I do it beacuse I think it best determines what I do belive in.
I beleve in me. I am God.
But it all religions not just Abrahamic ones, I hate the Dalai Lama and all he stands for. And the scientologists just make me laugh. Don mention the
Realians....Its all the same

eveyone is an athiest to some level... its usually just one or two Gods thats the problem....Often its the same one
But I don believe in Genesh, nor in Loki nor even in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Their all just as silly as each other to me.
And for the most part everyone reading this agrees. Its just when its that particular God ,that you may beleive in, that theres a problem.
All gods are silly. And I hate and oppose them all.
Tho I must say Id never attack someone for their beliefs. Thats just wrong. I wished many happy Christmases myself, despite not having any
belief at all in Christ. There are lots of possiblities about the Christ, but its definate that he wasnt born in Bethlehem on Dec25.
But all thats for another post maybe?!!?

Also
GaryB damn straight Boheminan Grove is a freaky thing. Moloch worship and all that...WTF.... world leaders...I mean
Again religion, and secret knowledge and power an corruption. It all goes hand in hand

So, what I really wanna know is what is it that makes you believe in your particular God?
I beleive in myself because Im tangable. I know Im here (existance is axiomatic) I know I control My destiny.

Why do you beleive in___?

Cheers
Me$$iah

BTW fascinating read this thread. I love the way threads move and change and meander. Its fun stuff.
Keep it coming..

Oh yeh ....
Happy New year
....to you all

[ This Message was edited by: Me$$iah on 2005-12-31 20:57 ]

hesnotthemessiah · Post by **hesnotthemessiah** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:08 pm

[

On 2005-12-29 17:08, Music Manic wrote:

You say you don't believe in a Creator so how do you make reason of anything seeing that all science creates and forms things.E.g. engines,drugs,buildings are all creations of some kind.

My opinion is this:-

So how do you make reason of anything seeing that all science creates and forms things, if you don't beieve in a Creator? My answer is I can't make reason of everything and no scientist has yet come up with a definitive explanation - and if they did, I doubt I, or most scientists, would fully understand it anyway. Just because I personally cannot expain how we got here through science doesn't mean this will not, eventually be explained scientifically.

Hundereds of years ago most people would have said the world was flat - if you sailed off too far you would fall off the edge. If you could go back in time, how would you explain to these people that this is not the case and that, infact, the world - Earth, is ball shaped? A lot of other quite complex issues would have to be explained to a people that would find the science behind the explanation unbelievable, ludicrous or just damn impossible to understand. I expect a lot of people today (me included) do not fully understand the science behind Earth being shaped as it is and not falling off it - which is, essentially, quite a simple concept in the scientific field.

Another example would be going back in time and explaining to people who worship a "sun god" what we now understand about the universe and the sun. So trying to discover, learn and understand about the origins of the universe from a scientific perspective is going to be a pretty long, difficult process which will include many theories and discoveries that most people, including many scientists, will find very difficult, if not impossible, to fully understand. Just in the same way that the fact that planet Earth is ball shaped would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fully understand for people, scientists included, living hundreds of years ago.

To me personally, I find religion helps people to explain what cannot be explained with science. It gives people answers. It gives people hope. People need religion like they need the sun to rise.

I personally, cannot understand how people, my parents included, go to Church and prey to a God. To me these people are reasonably well educated individuals yet they are doing something which I just cannot comprehend. EDIT - I have just realised my previous paragraph explains to me why people "go to Church and prey to a God" or have other religious beliefs.

Don't get me wrong, I have no answer to how we all got here and neither can any scientist come up with a definitive explanation at present. So, on that basis, I will not discount fully any notion of a creator.

[ This Message was edited by: hesnotthemessiah on 2005-12-31 23:24 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hesnotthemessiah on 2006-01-01 09:45 ]

Post by **garyb** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:11 pm

it doesn't matter what people believe. that's not truth. also, things don't need to make sense to you. there's not much a human can really know. the bohemian grove is lucefarian. moloch is the god of all imortal wisdom and knowledge, as well as death.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:59 am

On 2005-12-31 20:56, Me$$iah wrote:
...I beleve in me. I am God...
...
All gods are silly. And I hate and oppose them all...

happy new year Me$$iah

my original intention was to comment only the first half of the quote above with:the moment you wrote this line you separated yourself from divinity
... but then when cutting off the rest I stumbled over the second half... and found it a marvellous extension

not that I want to make you look foolish (it's the no-offence-thread anyway), but it reminds on those 'disciples of satan' wearing pentagrams to propagate their 'evilness' - while forgetting that the original meaning of the sign is to ban the devil

cheers, Tom