Creamware synths vs. VSTs

music251 · Post by **music251** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:48 am

Hi!

I never use VSTs, but I'm thinking of buying one or two because I want to use my laptop as a soundmodule. I already use the excellent EVB3 plugin in LogicPro7.
So I downloaded Minimonsta and Oddity (tried them in logic pro5.51), and was expecting something fairly decent but I was soooo disappointed.
Wow, I didn't know the difference was that big!

I mean, some people here claim that Oddity is a better emulation than Prodessey because it has duophonic mode. Well, the Oddity PALES compared to the Prodessey. It just sound a lot thinner, "colder" and generic.
Also Minimonsta was disappointing. Especially in the higher register it sounds rather thin and artificial. And it was just something about the general sound that failed to engage me. Tried making some fairly basic patches, but something was missing sonically IMO. Also the ressonance was rather lacking.
Obviously Creamware knows what they're doing, because what a difference!
I hope CW will make some good profit on their ASB boxes. Anyway they should, because they completely smoke the VST competition IMO.

Just had to get it of my chest.
Sorry for the rant.

[ This Message was edited by: music251 on 2006-01-07 08:53 ]

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:57 am

Someone gived a tip to fatten VSTi synth: insert the Scope softclip FX.

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:36 am

Agreed !
The only VSTi I still and will use with *pleasure* is the mighty Vaz Modular and I owned a lot of VSTi but with " mileage increased " they all dropped like flies !

music251 · Post by **music251** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:02 am

It seems we agree on this one!

AFAIK the only plugin that actually sounds better than Creamware's option is Emagic's EVB3. This is IMO the best hammond clone on the market. It sounds superior to Electro, VK-8, B4 and even B2003. It's a bit funny though, because I'm not that impressed with the other Emagic emulations, though the Clavinett and Rhodes sims are very decent. Emagic must have worked very hard on the EVB3, because its the only hammond clone I can actually do a decent Keith Emerson impression on!

It has to be said though, that I prefer the more aggressive and crisp hammond sound - B2003 is very good doing a more soft, laidback sound.

[ This Message was edited by: music251 on 2006-01-07 10:07 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:13 am

well, you know what.. I'd agree to a certan point.. but actually, I think I'd revert back to the old saying. You use what you have.. SFP is no magic. you don't throw in a magic synth and end up with a perfect mix.

To me, it really doesn't matter what a specific prophet or moog emu sounds like.. chances are, it's going to need some effects processing anyway. CW is good, but it's definitely not the entire gospel.

I'm not trying to forcefully put a lid on the joy ride, just make sure you don't go too far. The bottom line is, don't cause smoke where there is no fire.

Here's where my logic comes from... who cares where my prophet emu comes from, or where my moog emu comes from.. or even my hammond emu.. Has anyone wondered? I don't think so.. or, for the sake of the argument, I hope not. Because it changes from time time, for no apparent reason. To me, they're all the same. Just a bunch of oscilators and filters. Each with their own quirks.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-01-07 11:19 ]

Post by **hubird** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:51 pm

never agreed more to you Ken

I'd like to admit, and undoubtly I said that before, that it's all thausends and thausends decisions you have to make to get a track finished, is 99,9999999978% of the result, unless the VSTis used are crab of course.

I'm sure it has happened that I changed the Solaris or so in favour of a small Pluggo plugin, and it was much better for the song (sorry John, but you know what I mean

).

Device: trust yourself, except your limitations, pursue hi quality, and use the garbage wenn it's better than that

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:32 pm

Hi,

Taken this "vintage mood", I wonder if all these vsti "craps" will not become the next best things in 10 years

Maybe we will see developers trying to emulate these synths on their 128 cores PC, and peoples saying that these new synths doesn't do thoses beloved crapy sounds....

I should keep a PC with my model E, pro five, pp 2v, ... might become gold

[ This Message was edited by: MD69 on 2006-01-07 17:34 ]

wolf · Post by **wolf** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:13 am

Emagic must have worked very hard on the EVB3, because its the only hammond clone I can actually do a decent Keith Emerson impression on!

Well, the developer is a passionate and very good hammond player, who knows every soldering point and reel of his B3. I remember the presentation, where the developer of NIs B4 stand beside. He just got one word out: "respect".

music251 · Post by **music251** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:59 am

Interesting comments!
I definately agree with Ken and Hubrid and the others here, that its the end result that counts. However, if one is after an authentic analog sounding (digital) synth, and find joy in playing with that - then of course one would like to have something that sounds as close to the real thing as possible. That's something I miss with all the VA synths out there like Nord Lead and Virus etc., they don't cure my itch for believable Moog and ARP sounds. Of course, everything doesn't have to sound like that, but that's my favourite sonic palette anyway.

I've seen many times the argument: "VSTs can do 99% of the real analog, why bother with the last 1%, just buy the real thing then"..or whatever. Having owned a real Voyager, its obvious to me that Minimonsta leaves a lot to be desired in many contexts. Arturias Resonance (MiniMoogV) is really bad. Up to about 10 o'clock, about the only thing it does it lowering the total volume..? Minimax is much better, but still doesn't sound like the real thing entirely. Though I must say that many of the Creamware synths sound so close to the real thing, that they feel like a geniune quality synth that is very inspirering to use.

Bad VSTs are just doomed to oblivion IMO. However, synths like Solaris, Prodyssey, Profit12 and Minimax will age much better. That's my prediction at least.

[ This Message was edited by: music251 on 2006-01-08 15:17 ]

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:36 pm

As often, it's easy to mix two different perspectives, the artistic choice of what fits the composition better and the "scientific" analisys of some qualities like aliasing, resonance, waveform shape etc.

The great hit "DA DA DA" (maybe many can't remember it) by the "Trio" wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a Casiotone but only say...a DX1, at the time infinitely more expensive, that's not questionable, but if you just talk of sound quality the overall superior rank of CWA stuff is evident.

If perspectives are kept clearly separated, there is not so much discussion.

My 0,02 €

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:13 am

I would recommend giving the Applied Acoustic instruments a try - in the native world, they are the closest I have found to sounding and playing like real instruments. I get inspired to write something everytime I play them. Lounge Lizard (especially the new version) is absolutely amazing and is my favorite, but they all sound great.

http://www.applied-acoustics.com/

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:21 pm

On 2006-01-07 12:51, hubird wrote:...I'm sure it has happened that I changed the Solaris or so in favour of a small Pluggo plugin, and it was much better for the song (sorry John, but you know what I mean ).

Absolutely, hubird! No apology necessary!!
Actually, I think that as a designer, even though I tend to make "tools" that do a lot of things, it's not required that it be the only tool in the toolbox! Certainly the creative mind does not work that way. Use the tools that best help you create what you are trying to express.

For some reason, when I've made simpler "tools", they don't sell as well as my more complex ones...maybe because Celmo has done such a fantastic job making smaller devices. They're all very musical, and sound great!

cheers,
john b.

subimage · Post by **subimage** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:27 pm

ok so what are the "best" creamware synths? top of the line stuff...

minimax? modular 3?

i only have poison/vectron/inferno, etc...

Post by **garyb** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:36 pm

sure, minimax, pro12, solaris, bluewave, sixstring, b2003, there are so many great synths...

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:42 am

Hi John,

I think that the sale figure came from the fact that these synth filled the huge hole left in the synth sounds at that time. Solaris and Quantum wave fill the gap between the vintage synth and current trends (at least for me!) not from their intrinsic complexity. Each synth have its own "personnality" which make it more adapted for some specific use. One example is that I bought the ORION as I needed a specific sound capability adapted to lead sounds. I won't use the Quantum wave nor Solaris for that purpose (for effectiveness issue). Each users have their own priorities when it come to purchase (he will allocate his money to the tools which he lack most) and as his needs are filled, his priority change.
I think there are still useful simples synths (depending on their sound characteristics) to be developed, but developers needs a consensus in order to create a market large enought to pay back.

Cheers

Michel

RichElam · Post by **RichElam** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:49 am

On 2006-01-09 19:27, subimage wrote:
ok so what are the "best" creamware synths? top of the line stuff...

minimax? modular 3?

i only have poison/vectron/inferno, etc...

With the 4.5 upgrade (plus Synth and Sampler extension) only costing 98 euro, there is no excuse to not have Modular III, MiniMax, B2003 and Pro-12 also.

[ This Message was edited by: RichElam on 2006-01-10 07:50 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:50 pm

no offense, but if you throw all of the aforementioned into one track, it's most likely to sound as beautiful as the taste of 5 big pieces of creamcake within 15 minutes

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:01 pm

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:30 pm

The only VSTi plugins I often use are Native Instruments' Battery for drums and when needed, Emagics' EVP73, a Fender Rhodes emulation. It's not the most stable plugin, but it sounds to me better than any other electric piano emulation. I haven't tried the latest Lounge Lizard, but on the last version, I didn't think it did very good imitation of a Rhodes or Wurli, or at least, no better than I can get from any modern rompler, it just has this generic sound. But the EVP73 just has an atmosphere - and holding down the sustain pedal really changes the way it resonates, in a very musical way. The value of it in other words, is how it responds to your playing - but recording it can be a pain because it makes the system unstable especially when the ulli/latency is low, which it kind of has to be, to play it properly...

And the VSTi TickyClav gets a special mention, for a free plugin it has a decent sound.

The Creamware synths all sound great but I generally use one or two (at most) in a song, they're not the end-all and the be-all, but definitely a great source of synth-type sounds.

music251 · Post by **music251** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:46 pm

I tried demos of the tassman stuff (ultimate analog and modular), and didn't like it at all. I thought a real voyager (the only analog keyboard I've played in real life) sounded infinitely better. It just sounded thin and digital in my ears...oh, well...

Maybe I didn't give it enough time...

[ This Message was edited by: music251 on 2006-01-10 15:48 ]