My thought about Reaktor 5
To me, it's simply whether the tool works for you or not. I find Reaktor not very satisfying to my ears, so I don't use it...it's like, say the sound you want is a Les Paul guitar, so you don't use a Telecaster, but certainly the Tele has its own sound, which many others like and use as well.
john bowen
bowen synth design
zarg music
bowen synth design
zarg music
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Nestor
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John, your words describe pretty well which my impression with Reaktor was. BTW, I prefer a Les Paul!On 2006-03-01 09:47, johnbowen wrote:
To me, it's simply whether the tool works for you or not. I find Reaktor not very satisfying to my ears, so I don't use it...it's like, say the sound you want is a Les Paul guitar, so you don't use a Telecaster, but certainly the Tele has its own sound, which many others like and use as well.
***
What Chris says about transforming the sound with plugins is certainly a valid possibility to get what you want, particularly if you compose atmospheric music. But I like the "pure characteristic" of sound coming from a particular device “meanwhile” you express your emotions. A mean, as a Fusion musician (mainly) I like things in “real time”, so to have the drive to play and improvise, I can’t wait for the processing to come later.
It is quite difficult anyway, to change this "exclusive" sound behind a plug like Reaktor I think. If you do it too much with the processing in wav, well, it is no longer Reaktor what you truly like, it is rather what you are capable of doing through editing.
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*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*______
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2006-03-01 12:47 ]</font>
I'd say though that Reaktor's sound has improved a lot with version 5's core technology. If you think it sounds thin listen again to some of the newer ens from version 5 made with Core technology. Up till then I'd agree it had a sound of it's own but with the new tech it's possible for people to create their own oscillator and filter models and not rely on the built in ones - we will see a new world of sound emerging as this takes off. Also, as I said, the introduction of technology from SyncC Modular has, to my ears, beefed up the sound as well. It is not the same as previous versions sonically.
I spent not a long time with Pulsar modular unfortunately.. I favoured the more open architecture and at least to me simplicity of Reaktor, I feel in love with it and bought it not so long ago, and i'm glad i did...
I agree that some, well a lot of user library is not that good, even tough some are, but the native's own lib is kinda nice, actually i'll dare to say that if you just stick with Reaktor libraries as a whole and you are into electronic music, this will be probably the only piece of kit you'll ever use.
I find it totally amazing for mangling samples.. from voices or drums to full songs and transform them into new melody or new rythm or groove shadows, with a little experiment you go wow this is nice.
And probably you didn't listen to just all of NI library it has several thousand of presets...
Talking about sound i wouldn't say it's plastic or it is something to describe; it is just as you make it sound, obviously if you overtweak with modulation or filters it can become plastic on certain synth.
It also feature so much more osc, filter, fx and everything you may ever want to have in a synth or a sampler or whatever you have in mind there (soooooo much more than Pulsar modular) and with the addiction of Core, new modules are in the making...
I think some here (as I am doing probably with Modular) are judging a book just by its cover.
Double clicking on a module most of time autoconnects it or gives hint to what you may connect and what it does.. has Modular any of this ?
Or a Macro to start with, or some new core module or full instrument... and when your project gets too busy just group stuff together and hide it in a box.. couldnt do that before with pulsar...
Granular sample management...
And so much more stuff that's not possible to do with modular due to close and rather cumbersome architecture...
It also feature the pro52 filters among the about 20 it has that are by no mean plastic but rather warm to my hears, so next time please put some osc together and a filter and tell me if you still think it's plastic, curious...
If you still think it's a toy, well after this little talking i think i'll play with my toy, isn't it all what's about ?
Respect and good music with whatever you like...
I agree that some, well a lot of user library is not that good, even tough some are, but the native's own lib is kinda nice, actually i'll dare to say that if you just stick with Reaktor libraries as a whole and you are into electronic music, this will be probably the only piece of kit you'll ever use.
I find it totally amazing for mangling samples.. from voices or drums to full songs and transform them into new melody or new rythm or groove shadows, with a little experiment you go wow this is nice.
And probably you didn't listen to just all of NI library it has several thousand of presets...
Talking about sound i wouldn't say it's plastic or it is something to describe; it is just as you make it sound, obviously if you overtweak with modulation or filters it can become plastic on certain synth.
It also feature so much more osc, filter, fx and everything you may ever want to have in a synth or a sampler or whatever you have in mind there (soooooo much more than Pulsar modular) and with the addiction of Core, new modules are in the making...
I think some here (as I am doing probably with Modular) are judging a book just by its cover.
Double clicking on a module most of time autoconnects it or gives hint to what you may connect and what it does.. has Modular any of this ?
Or a Macro to start with, or some new core module or full instrument... and when your project gets too busy just group stuff together and hide it in a box.. couldnt do that before with pulsar...
Granular sample management...
And so much more stuff that's not possible to do with modular due to close and rather cumbersome architecture...
It also feature the pro52 filters among the about 20 it has that are by no mean plastic but rather warm to my hears, so next time please put some osc together and a filter and tell me if you still think it's plastic, curious...
If you still think it's a toy, well after this little talking i think i'll play with my toy, isn't it all what's about ?
Respect and good music with whatever you like...
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Nestor
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- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
Well, if you were to build into a Scope board what Reaktor does in terms of complexity and amount of LFOs and stuff in a single patch, you would probably need about, I don’t know, maybe 100 sharks! That may be the future that awaits us, when new releases of super advanced Scope boards come to live. If this happens, then Reaktor will be put to shame… Can you imagine the Solaris concept build with the Reaktor complexity? Wow!!! The slogan could be sort of:
“The end of synths has arrived! Now Solaris rules the world!”
Reading the forum, thinking farther about Reaktor, I start realizing that there is something that bothers me much of it, I didn’t realise it before today, and that is that Reaktor is like a “machine” rather than an “instrument”, to a certain extent.
Please, if you love Reaktor, don’t feel annoyed by my descriptions of it; this is just my own perception and nothing else, what I say is not important and I am not looking offending any user, I hate this things, ok?
I will explain myself better about this point. I know that it is an instrument, right? But it is very much focused to one-finger-playing kind of thing. I don’t like this concept at all. I find terribly boring to play a note and reproduce a groovy that is already in there, ready to be played; then add some two or three more one-finger-play patches to achieve the form of a basic song, then add some automatic padding, some automatic chords, some automatic drums, till you get a perfect automatic cold song, record it to your editor, pump it up with lots and lots of compression and reverb, and in a couple of hours you are uploading supposedly, “a song”. I don’t like this music approach, I like alive music instead. Of course you can use Reaktor to do exactly the contrary, but listening to what people do with it, you realise that most of them use it this way, and is awfully tiresome. You hear always the same kind of stuff so full of weird, aggressive automatic noises that it becomes terribly unpleasant to hear them at all.
BTW, to make justice to quite a few truly creative musicians out there, I would separate electronic music into two sectors, one that is the mass consumer sector, i.e., “electronic-automatic-rubbish”, and then “real-electronic-music”. The first one is formed by exceptionally BAD quality noises; there is no other way to describe it for me. The other one, the real-electronic-music, despite it can use heavy machinery behind, many hard noises, be heavily pumped up, etc., it still has the quality of “expression” and “musicality”.
Back to Reaktor:
If I had the money to buy Reaktor 5, I would buy it because it is so open, so creative, with endless possibilities. I am convinced I could easily find complementary sounds that could enrich very much my compositions and musical ideas.
The music that is made by a synth, or that becomes related to a particular platform, may it be a soundcard, a VST whichever, etc., attracts or rejects potential costumers. I mean, the association you make with the item and the music played with it, makes the difference, yes, it’s just an impression, but it works in either ways, for you to get it, or for you to hate it. This happens the same way when you see a beautiful girl, wow, she is so beautiful that your eyes cannot detach from her… and you stick your eyes at her body as if you were under a spell… Suddenly she comes closer and… “speaks”… Mama mía, she is such an angry person! She cries loud a hard complaint to the shop you are in, just because the owner don’t have her panties size. Her words are like arrows that are thrown from her mouth all over the place. Your impression of that girl, it doesn’t matter how beautiful she is, starts to fade away… This happens to with instruments and plugins.
“The end of synths has arrived! Now Solaris rules the world!”
Reading the forum, thinking farther about Reaktor, I start realizing that there is something that bothers me much of it, I didn’t realise it before today, and that is that Reaktor is like a “machine” rather than an “instrument”, to a certain extent.
Please, if you love Reaktor, don’t feel annoyed by my descriptions of it; this is just my own perception and nothing else, what I say is not important and I am not looking offending any user, I hate this things, ok?
I will explain myself better about this point. I know that it is an instrument, right? But it is very much focused to one-finger-playing kind of thing. I don’t like this concept at all. I find terribly boring to play a note and reproduce a groovy that is already in there, ready to be played; then add some two or three more one-finger-play patches to achieve the form of a basic song, then add some automatic padding, some automatic chords, some automatic drums, till you get a perfect automatic cold song, record it to your editor, pump it up with lots and lots of compression and reverb, and in a couple of hours you are uploading supposedly, “a song”. I don’t like this music approach, I like alive music instead. Of course you can use Reaktor to do exactly the contrary, but listening to what people do with it, you realise that most of them use it this way, and is awfully tiresome. You hear always the same kind of stuff so full of weird, aggressive automatic noises that it becomes terribly unpleasant to hear them at all.
BTW, to make justice to quite a few truly creative musicians out there, I would separate electronic music into two sectors, one that is the mass consumer sector, i.e., “electronic-automatic-rubbish”, and then “real-electronic-music”. The first one is formed by exceptionally BAD quality noises; there is no other way to describe it for me. The other one, the real-electronic-music, despite it can use heavy machinery behind, many hard noises, be heavily pumped up, etc., it still has the quality of “expression” and “musicality”.
Back to Reaktor:
If I had the money to buy Reaktor 5, I would buy it because it is so open, so creative, with endless possibilities. I am convinced I could easily find complementary sounds that could enrich very much my compositions and musical ideas.
The music that is made by a synth, or that becomes related to a particular platform, may it be a soundcard, a VST whichever, etc., attracts or rejects potential costumers. I mean, the association you make with the item and the music played with it, makes the difference, yes, it’s just an impression, but it works in either ways, for you to get it, or for you to hate it. This happens the same way when you see a beautiful girl, wow, she is so beautiful that your eyes cannot detach from her… and you stick your eyes at her body as if you were under a spell… Suddenly she comes closer and… “speaks”… Mama mía, she is such an angry person! She cries loud a hard complaint to the shop you are in, just because the owner don’t have her panties size. Her words are like arrows that are thrown from her mouth all over the place. Your impression of that girl, it doesn’t matter how beautiful she is, starts to fade away… This happens to with instruments and plugins.
Nestor, I agree with you and respect your opinion, and I had to say sorry if you find my previous message sort of harsh, it wasn't at all my meanings...
I'd also say that electronic music even if made with sounds coming from outer space (nice to hear sometimes IMO) has to be music in some way... and to my taste there's some Idm or electro stuff that is just noises or is simply boring by overuse of tool as Reaktor so i see your point, but there are also people that find the genius in their work and go by them.
Bear in mind anyway that Techno (the one of pioneers) and downward to all of the younger children (eg. styles) was made by people with not a big musical background, mainly Djs or party lovers.
So their main focus was sound, and if they were looking for melodies or harmonies they sampled a chord or many and then assign them to a single key and played that back at different keys coming up with non-existing chords due to different transposition, but that anyway owned that weirdness and mood their music was all about... Reverse strings also were used so often...
That is the reason why you see so many stuff out there meant to made music with a single key, or in automatic, or dropping chords.. i mean and this time i'll move to live electro music or the making of it... an evolving pad or cool noises that keeps on changing in time frees up hands to make some tweaking on drums and other things, and if in 2 hour you listen back and say, hey this is ok, i don't need anymore tweaking or stuff in here, that's it.
Also not to be forgotten that Dj's used to mix record and repeat the part they were feeling right for the moment at will, exchanging disc, nowdays with laptops it's also overeasy to go by a killer groove then a dark moody strings part, then all together to a new percussion groove to start over again, adding bits and parts as the dancefloor goes making your music, so also start considering songs not just by the whole but by single bits, are them percussion, drums, voices, instrument or whatever you feel will do. Electronic music is also meant to be kinda repetitive in any of his form, to make people most of the time dance and to retain that "mental" particularity.
Music is a form of expression or at least should be, sometimes we are able to see, sometimes we don't, i anyway agree that too often experimenting with sound carry people too much away, ending up in barely noises.
To end with a laugh meaning nothing, how about dropping the job and carry the girl in another shop to find her pants size and see how gorgeous pants look on her, so you can feel warmed by her smile and beauty again ?
Good Music
I'd also say that electronic music even if made with sounds coming from outer space (nice to hear sometimes IMO) has to be music in some way... and to my taste there's some Idm or electro stuff that is just noises or is simply boring by overuse of tool as Reaktor so i see your point, but there are also people that find the genius in their work and go by them.
Bear in mind anyway that Techno (the one of pioneers) and downward to all of the younger children (eg. styles) was made by people with not a big musical background, mainly Djs or party lovers.
So their main focus was sound, and if they were looking for melodies or harmonies they sampled a chord or many and then assign them to a single key and played that back at different keys coming up with non-existing chords due to different transposition, but that anyway owned that weirdness and mood their music was all about... Reverse strings also were used so often...
That is the reason why you see so many stuff out there meant to made music with a single key, or in automatic, or dropping chords.. i mean and this time i'll move to live electro music or the making of it... an evolving pad or cool noises that keeps on changing in time frees up hands to make some tweaking on drums and other things, and if in 2 hour you listen back and say, hey this is ok, i don't need anymore tweaking or stuff in here, that's it.
Also not to be forgotten that Dj's used to mix record and repeat the part they were feeling right for the moment at will, exchanging disc, nowdays with laptops it's also overeasy to go by a killer groove then a dark moody strings part, then all together to a new percussion groove to start over again, adding bits and parts as the dancefloor goes making your music, so also start considering songs not just by the whole but by single bits, are them percussion, drums, voices, instrument or whatever you feel will do. Electronic music is also meant to be kinda repetitive in any of his form, to make people most of the time dance and to retain that "mental" particularity.
Music is a form of expression or at least should be, sometimes we are able to see, sometimes we don't, i anyway agree that too often experimenting with sound carry people too much away, ending up in barely noises.
To end with a laugh meaning nothing, how about dropping the job and carry the girl in another shop to find her pants size and see how gorgeous pants look on her, so you can feel warmed by her smile and beauty again ?
Good Music
Don't take offense, but in my opinion, Reaktor seems kind of gimmicky. I really have a hard time with it musically. I find the Tassman Modular much more musical and unique - more subtle and expressive.
Also, I am growing very tired with a lot of the electronic music that continues to go down the so-called experimental path. I loved this music a while back, but it has grown very stale lately. Maybe it is a result of too many tools (whereas in the past, many of the original makers of this music took very limited tools and exploited the hell out of them). Anymore, the music seems to be more about "look what I can do" than something that is really emotive, moving and innovative. Of course, this isn't true across the board, but it does seem to be more prevalent - and the all encompassing tools may be somewhat to blame. Maybe it has caused a lack of focus on what's really important - making something fresh and truly inspiring.
Also, I am growing very tired with a lot of the electronic music that continues to go down the so-called experimental path. I loved this music a while back, but it has grown very stale lately. Maybe it is a result of too many tools (whereas in the past, many of the original makers of this music took very limited tools and exploited the hell out of them). Anymore, the music seems to be more about "look what I can do" than something that is really emotive, moving and innovative. Of course, this isn't true across the board, but it does seem to be more prevalent - and the all encompassing tools may be somewhat to blame. Maybe it has caused a lack of focus on what's really important - making something fresh and truly inspiring.
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Nestor
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I have to agree with you about the “too-many-tools” concept, because it is true. There are so many good and cheap things to play with today and many, many good VSTi for free that it’s crazy.
It happens like when you do a cake, if there is too much sugar, it goes to the opposite, you wanted to eat something sweat, but you finish hating sugar and related, because you saturate yourself with too much of the same.
I have not tried or heard the modular you are talking about, I would like to have a look at it, for the sake of it.
How does it exactly compare in terms of sound with Reaktor? What is so different you mean? Cheers
It happens like when you do a cake, if there is too much sugar, it goes to the opposite, you wanted to eat something sweat, but you finish hating sugar and related, because you saturate yourself with too much of the same.
I have not tried or heard the modular you are talking about, I would like to have a look at it, for the sake of it.
How does it exactly compare in terms of sound with Reaktor? What is so different you mean? Cheers
In my opinion - there is no comparison in sound between Tassman and Reaktor. Tassman is on a totally different level to my ears - and there is a focus on physical modeling which brings some unique characteristics.
I will say that Tassman does not have the same depth and flexibility as Reaktor - but again the emphasis is on sound quality and unique sounds based on physical modeling technology. Also, Tassman's user interface could use improving in my opinion. However, overall Tassman feels more like a true playable instrument (as do all of the Applied Acoustic instruments) - and the sound and playability make up for any shortcomings in the user interface.
I have given Reaktor a try several times throughout its version history (including the latest version) - and while I had some fun noodling around at first it ultimately left me uninspired. In contrast,When I sit down with Tassman, I get inspired and want to create music.
Also, Tassman is somewhat of a CPU hog, but I would rather have fewer voices and have them sound great.
(By the way, one of my all time favorite soft synths is Lounge Lizard - a great electric piano emulation by Applied Acoustics based on the physical modeling technology in Tassman.)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2006-03-03 22:08 ]</font>
I will say that Tassman does not have the same depth and flexibility as Reaktor - but again the emphasis is on sound quality and unique sounds based on physical modeling technology. Also, Tassman's user interface could use improving in my opinion. However, overall Tassman feels more like a true playable instrument (as do all of the Applied Acoustic instruments) - and the sound and playability make up for any shortcomings in the user interface.
I have given Reaktor a try several times throughout its version history (including the latest version) - and while I had some fun noodling around at first it ultimately left me uninspired. In contrast,When I sit down with Tassman, I get inspired and want to create music.
Also, Tassman is somewhat of a CPU hog, but I would rather have fewer voices and have them sound great.
(By the way, one of my all time favorite soft synths is Lounge Lizard - a great electric piano emulation by Applied Acoustics based on the physical modeling technology in Tassman.)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2006-03-03 22:08 ]</font>
Some sound examples from there web site:
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... vieres.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... lizard.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... CTheme.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... elodic.mp3
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2006-03-03 22:03 ]</font>
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... vieres.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... lizard.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... CTheme.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... elodic.mp3
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2006-03-03 22:03 ]</font>
Also, while checking out Tassman, you may also want to take a listen to StringStudio (i hate to sound like a commercial for AAS, but I do really love their instruments).
Here's one example, in case you are interested:
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... mesCap.mp3
Here's one example, in case you are interested:
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... mesCap.mp3
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Nestor
- Posts: 6683
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
Don’t worry about your “advertisement procedure” 
, if you like it, well… you like it!
Great info, I am listening to all the links right now, quite interesting sounds and textures. Quite appealing sound, I hope those songs have not been mastered too much through.
Cheers
, if you like it, well… you like it!Great info, I am listening to all the links right now, quite interesting sounds and textures. Quite appealing sound, I hope those songs have not been mastered too much through.
Cheers
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Hey big one!! in love with sounds and mood of demos so besides they yours or from them, well, Huccfw you deserve the 10% out of sales of Applied Acoustic...
Disappointed of never tried it out and spent money on Reaktor then... Hope to come out with something as nice and as musical to justify my outgoing money; see me in a long time since i'm a one key musician, but who knows... As usual head down... and from now on, hard work... maybe my Reaktor (paid for it) was a winning horse... but i'm a loser with just one skin, anyhow huge reverb and compression on the sounds....
Just got a demo out of them... keep you informed, in the meantime...
good music to all whatever you use, and thanks for advice....
Disappointed of never tried it out and spent money on Reaktor then... Hope to come out with something as nice and as musical to justify my outgoing money; see me in a long time since i'm a one key musician, but who knows... As usual head down... and from now on, hard work... maybe my Reaktor (paid for it) was a winning horse... but i'm a loser with just one skin, anyhow huge reverb and compression on the sounds....
Just got a demo out of them... keep you informed, in the meantime...
good music to all whatever you use, and thanks for advice....
Well There You Go Again,
Face it, our platform rules. It's the Pro Tools of synths, period. I am a hardware convert, still use the SE-1x, and XPander, but Solaris adds the textures those 2 can't create. Until there are quad core CPUs, and more resources for VST programmers I'm afraid we will still be top shelf. With CWA programmers, J.Bowen, Celmo, and others which I haven't had time to try yet, VST will be playing catch-up IMHO. The only VSTs that I like are the FX like Nomad's Blue Tubes,Gigapulse,and of course UADs which suck live though. So quit searching through waek stuff when all you need is what you got.
Punisher Of VSTs,
Face it, our platform rules. It's the Pro Tools of synths, period. I am a hardware convert, still use the SE-1x, and XPander, but Solaris adds the textures those 2 can't create. Until there are quad core CPUs, and more resources for VST programmers I'm afraid we will still be top shelf. With CWA programmers, J.Bowen, Celmo, and others which I haven't had time to try yet, VST will be playing catch-up IMHO. The only VSTs that I like are the FX like Nomad's Blue Tubes,Gigapulse,and of course UADs which suck live though. So quit searching through waek stuff when all you need is what you got.
Punisher Of VSTs,
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powerpulsarian
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Tassman wins over Reaktor hands down in my book. I guess everyone has different ears.
I will admit that Reaktor has some great instant gratification type sounds - but on the whole it just doesn't stack up to me. (Although, Reaktor is a great sample mangler, if that's what you are looking for.)
It took a little bit of time for me before Tassman's sound really sank in. But once it did, I was addicted.
I will admit that Reaktor has some great instant gratification type sounds - but on the whole it just doesn't stack up to me. (Although, Reaktor is a great sample mangler, if that's what you are looking for.)
It took a little bit of time for me before Tassman's sound really sank in. But once it did, I was addicted.