Serious trouble getting Scope to work with Openlabs Neko64

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:05 am

Ok, I have been away from the Scope world for a couple of years but the offer of 4.5 made me come back and I have just added a second hand Scope Pro board to my Pulsar 2.

I am using the Openlabs Neko64 workstation since this let me cut a lot of time in my daily work of converting audio and creating midi stuff. Although the Delta 1010 LT integrated is good it is not really Scope, you know...

. I installed my old Pulsar 2 board about 2 months ago and there has been no real problems with it before I installed the Pro board last week.

To cut a long story short: the system freezes a lot. It does seem to be when connected to a sequencer source (and I have got to do that in order to use the Minmax and stuff since I do not use any external midi in for the Creamware system). I am using Cubase SX3 and before it hangs it usually starts dropping or sticking notes (and for some unexplainable reason it does not seem to be able to do polyphonic work!!!).

Before I read up on this forum I had a lot of lost communication errors and I was not able to use that much of dsp's before it collapsed.

I have a couple of questions for you if you have got the time:

1) Anyone using the Openlabs system here and might have some suggestions about solving this?

2) You think the Openlabs Neko64 (dual opteron 1.4 version) is an ok host or useless (will I not ever get it to work properly)? I am sorry for not knowing all details about the motherboard and stuff (I am really not that good at computer components) but if you have the time to read up about it on http://www.openlabs.com I would be very thankful.

3) Any hints for setting up Scope with Cubase (I am all ears)?

4) Any way of disabling possible active sensing that MIGHT be sent from the mFUsion midi system (the keys, fader and rotary modules are midi devices connected to that system)? Again, I am not using the midi ports of the Creamware boards, just using sequencer source module (not even dest module yet)?

5) Will the windows screensaver (just black with logo) affect the system? I usually get the system to work for a couple of minutes but when I return after 15 minutes or so it has frozen.

6) You think the Delta PCI has affect it all? If so, is it sufficent enough to disable the device in Device manager or do I need to lift the board out of the machine?

Ok, if you have read this far I thank you a lot for your time. Any suggestions about fixing a workable system are very much welcomed!

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I am using 1 S/TDM cable between the 2 boards. For space reasons, I am using the second port on Pulsar 2 and the third (or 4th) port on the Pro board (otherwise it is not possible to shut the case...there are some spots in the Neko that are in the way).

2nd EDIT: Well, it seems that leaving Scope by itself without any sequencer launched makes the system freeze as well so I guess it is not MIDI? I will make sure to get the details about the system (mobo etx) and post it asap.
_________________
I feel so extraordinary...

[ This Message was edited by: dobermate on 2006-05-01 11:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dobermate on 2006-05-01 12:04 ]

Post by **irrelevance** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:47 am

Hi dobermate. I'm actually thinking of purchasing an open labs Neko later this year but have been worried about a few points, some of which you have just mentioned.

Firstly you say Neko performs as it should with the pulsar2 installed on it's own?
You need to find out which motherboard is being used as it could be a known bad performer with scope, the same also goes for graphics cards anything else on the pci bus and installed music programs you're using.
I believe that Neko has PCI-e slots is this right?

If you're using creamware as an ASIO master in another peice of software ie for vst's does it perform as normal? what kind of latency are you getting?

I've had problems in the past with midi interface drivers affecting audio in cubase so it's entirely possible that the 1010 drivers could be corrupt and may need reinstalling?

In the VST audiobay in SX3 make sure you have not ticked release ASIO driver in background

Under Expert settings audio priority should be set to Very High
Leave Preload as is (2 seconds?)
Lower latency should be ticked.

Thats all I can think of for now. Please post your Neko specs in reply. I think it's alot to expect others to do all the digging for you and I'm sure openlabs would provide you that information if you asked, I've spoken to them on a number of occasions and they seem very helpful.

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:39 pm

Ok, an update of 2 things: some specs and news about non-freezing

!

Yes, so how dumb was I? Since I disabled the windows screensaver the system has not yet crashed...I have been there touching it with intervalls of 30 minutes and 60 minutes and no connection lost with boards and no freezing (yet...). Could this have been it??? I must add this is when the neko is in "ONLY SCOPE"-mode...no seq launched or anything.

Well, I still expect trouble using Cubase. For some strange reason I get stuck notes and I can not play chords. I have reinstalled the drivers for mFusion (the overall MIDI routing system for Neko) but it does not seem to help. Strange, huh?

Ok, now for the specs:

Motherboard: TYAN Tiger K8W
Graphics AGP-card: Matrox P650 w dualhead (and triplehead extension)
Internal monitor: 15" touchscreen...no idea of brand or anything
OS: Windows XP Pro SP2
Chipsets: Well, I really am no expert here, but when I look carefully in the manual at a very small text in a pic it seems like VIA 6307 is one and another is names VIA VT6312. Could that make sense?

Other info about the system:
Dual 1.4GHz Opteron Processor / 1 GB RAM / 80GB HD / Combo Drive (DVD & CD Burner)/ 15' color touch screen / 61 key / Firewire/ Fader, rotary and master control MIDI modules/ Integrated Qwerty module

I have disabled:
1) firewire
2) Some PCI to USB driver placed on the same IRQ as Pulsar 2
3) And earlier tonight the Delta 1010 LT (which I really do not want to do because of the easy access to sound but if it makes Scope work then it is worth it)
4) I have also changed the numproc=1 but I wonder if I really should do this...it is not real dual-core anyway, right?

Ok, very sorry for not getting all the info you need (I guess) but it seems quite hard for a non-techie to get to it fast. I will make sure to contact Openlabs if needed.

Again, thanks for reading (and thanks Irrelevance for pointing me in the right direction)!

EDIT: Forgot music apps:
1) Cubase SX3
2) Wavelab 5
3) VST plugs: Stylus RMX, Soniccharge Microtonic, Sampletank 2 XL, Hypersonic w expansions, assorted freebees and stuff shipped with the Neko (the last I am not using but have got stored on the machine)
_________________
I feel so extraordinary...

[ This Message was edited by: dobermate on 2006-05-01 14:42 ]

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:39 pm

Ok, new update...the only scope-mode seemed to work ok for a couple of hours. Then I started to get cocky and added the ADAT sources and connected my Elektron machines via A16 (old model). Worked ok...then I added a Masterverb pro and Interpole. A couple of minutes later the meters hung. I got to reset the slave/master setting (I use Scope as Master in 44.1 and A16 as slave). It stated that dreadful "A communication problem with board 0" or whatever the text says. And then this turned up like every third minutes or so until I managed to freeze it somehow

.

I had Minimax (1 voice), Pro-12 (3 voices) and Vectron (6 voices) loaded as well but there seemed to be a lot of dsp room left.

Anyone experienced communications problem due to using ADAT connections (I am using quite old cables I unpacked from my cable suitcas after 3 years...are these very sensitive?)? And are Minimax and Pro-12 especially troublesome for the boards?

Sorry if all this is clear...I am like a newbie again. And really, if the Scope system were not so flexible and damn good sounding (sounds every bit as good as my colleague's Protools HD) I would probably just use Cubase or Protools LE and remain a newbie.

But that ain't gonna happen

!

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:18 am

you may have some irq sharing issues since the new card was installed.

look at this: start -> execute -> winmsd -> then look for irq sharing/conflicts in the section hardware resources.

if one of your creamware card is sharing irq with the video card, network card etc. this could cause troubles. make shure your creamware cards have their own irq. btw, two creamware cards could share one irq.

try to change pci slots for irq assignment...

as you found out by yourself, screensaver on is a big no-no for every audio workstation. try to disable all unecessary things and tune your daw as mentioned here:
http://www.musicxp.net/tuning_tips.php

good luck!
roman

Post by **irrelevance** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:29 am

Definately get those cards on there own IRQ's. If you can't move the scope cards try moving other pci cards around.
I'm actually toying with the idea of getting openlabs to mod an a16 into the design rather than a 1010 so then I can just feed cables internally and work solely with scope.

Post by **irrelevance** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:34 am

there have been issues in the past with via chipsets and I don't believe they are recommended.

Post by **garyb** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:53 am

yep. via chipsets aren't too good. it should still work, however. normally, via just means poor pci performance.

an irq problem, that'll make hay. what ARE the shared irqs?

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:19 am

oops...hey, look at this:

Can't collect information
Cannot access the Windows Management Instrumentation software. Windows Management files may be moved or missing.

This is what I get when trying to take a look at the Harware resources/Conflicts and sharing!!!

How about that! No good, I reckon. Any advice here?

Well, a new day a new behaviour :/. The PC froze after about 5 minutes just running there by itself without any audio or midi running...just me checking the system info.

Speaking of the system info...well, I am not techie as I said earlier so here goes the output I got from device manager and IRQ's:

(IRQ Usage Summary:)S
N 550 2075 2350 83 rp C
((ISA) 0 AMD-8111 High Precision Event Timer)S
N 550 2158 1650 83 rp C
((ISA) 7 Open Labs Midi Driver)S
N 550 2241 2350 83 rp C
((ISA) 8 AMD-8111 High Precision Event Timer)S
N 550 2324 2150 83 rp C
((ISA) 9 Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System)S
N 550 2407 2050 83 rp C
((PCI) 10 AMD-8111 SMBus 2.0 Controller)S
N 550 2490 1600 83 rp C
((ISA) 12 Microsoft PS/2 Mouse)S
N 550 2573 1700 83 rp C
((ISA) 13 Numeric data processor)S
N 550 2656 1750 83 rp C
((ISA) 14 Primary AMD IDE Channel)S
N 550 2739 1850 83 rp C
((ISA) 15 Secondary AMD IDE Channel)S
N 550 2822 1750 83 rp C
((PCI) 16 Matrox Millennium P650 )S
N 550 2905 1350 83 rp C
((PCI) 17 Creamware Scope)S
N 550 2988 2800 83 rp C
((PCI) 17 VIA OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller)S
N 550 3071 3000 83 rp C
((PCI) 17 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller)S
N 550 3154 2550 83 rp C
((PCI) 18 Intel(R) PRO/1000 MT Network Connection)S
N 550 3237 3000 83 rp C
((PCI) 18 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller)S
N 550 3320 2400 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Standard OpenHCD USB Host Controller)S
N 550 3403 2400 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Standard OpenHCD USB Host Controller)S
N 550 3486 2700 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Silicon Image SiI 3114 SATALink Controller)S
N 550 3569 1450 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Creamware Pulsar2)S
N 550 3652 2800 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller)S
N 450 3818 2950 83 rp C

Well, the Delta1010 clearly is not listed due to me disabling the drive but it is in the PCI slot still.

garyb: nice to see you are taking a look here as well...I have seen great advices coming from you in this forum.

/patrik

EDIT: the PC did not freeze by itself, Scope was launched to of course. The PC does not freeze otherwise.

[ This Message was edited by: dobermate on 2006-05-02 12:21 ]

Post by **garyb** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:55 am

((PCI) 17 Creamware Scope)S
N 550 2988 2800 83 rp C
((PCI) 17 VIA OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller)S
N 550 3071 3000 83 rp C
((PCI) 17 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller)S
N 550 3154 2550 83 rp C

((PCI) 19 Standard OpenHCD USB Host Controller)S
N 550 3403 2400 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Standard OpenHCD USB Host Controller)S
N 550 3486 2700 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Silicon Image SiI 3114 SATALink Controller)S
N 550 3569 1450 83 rp C
((PCI) 19 Creamware Pulsar2)S
N 550 3652 2800 83 rp C

here are your problems. i hate to say this, but a different motherboard would be better.

otherwise, disable all those usb controllers and the firewire in the device manager(actually the fw can probably stay if you don't use it while scope is running). this will leave one usb controller on irq 18 which will still allow dongles, transfers etc.

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:28 pm

wait, you want me to disable all those you mentioned...the Silicon Image SiI 3114 SATALink Controller)S too?

This is probably very obvious, but I can not say I know the answer of my question above. Funny, working with computers and understanding the structure and physical connections are totally different areas!

Post by **garyb** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:02 pm

no, you need that sata controller. i've had that one be ok before. it depends on the motherboard. the usb MUST go. i'd disable the firewire as well if you aren't using it. as suggested, switching slots might really help the most.

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Tue May 02, 2006 2:36 pm

Thanks, garyb! I am testing now. However, the USB driver at IRQ 19 was the one managing the 3 modules integrated in the neko (fader, rotary and master) and it really did not want to be disabled (no option). I tried to unistall it, but it all reinstalled upon restart...

So, I really must try to change the PCI positions, right? It is very hard considering the space but I might give it a try...won't give up

!

Again, thank you (all) for helping!

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:03 pm

Well, after leaving it for more than an hour, I came back, moved the mouse and had high hopes for like 4 seconds. Then it froze again.

So, you think this might be due to the IRQ 19 issue mentioned before? Or the PCI placement? Or faulty connection to A16? The Minimax wouldn't cause this, right (it was loaded along pro-12 and vectron)?

Should I just give up?

Sometimes it is really hard to love Scope, I tell ya...

Post by **garyb** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:18 pm

yeah..
it's not really scope's fault. that usb controller is almost CERTAINLY the culprit.

really, i'm disappointed in open lab's choice of motherboards. via chipset? all brands of interfaces hate that for audio...

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2006-05-02 17:19 ]

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:43 pm

Surprised me too. Why on earth would they pick via? Is it possible to get into the bios on the neko and force irq allocations?

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue May 02, 2006 5:21 pm

Yeah this is pretty nuts. And they really don't brag about it, I can't find a single mention of the motherboard specs/chipsets anywhere on their site!

adrian · Post by **adrian** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:13 pm

i actually have a neko running with 2 scope cards in it....and i use cubase sx3 and everything works fine....however you need to note the neko can't really fit 2 full length cards only one full length and it has to be placed in the back of the pci slots...i have a scope pro and scope project so it was perfect for me.....as for cubase make certain you are using asio2 in your scope set up not the standard wave set up...your software may be prioritizing the internal neko soundcard instead of scope as your main card...make sure you run a good setup file in scope before launchin cubase...i can send u the one i made...just let me know....it works great for me but setting up was really difficult....

adrian · Post by **adrian** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:27 pm

my system is actually very stable so i'm surprized to hear this....it sound's like some kind of driver conflict but i am not experiencing it myself...disabling the delta is unessary and i know that's not where the conflict is...i was even able to internaly route the scope through the delta outputs with soundcard dest...i only did that for testing though and wouldn't recomend using it but that confirms the functionality of the different cards working together...

dobermate · Post by **dobermate** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:16 pm

Hey hey Adrian!!! Good news to seee a fellow neko user. To be fair, my complaints in this matter really does not make the neko full justice. It IS a really nice package and really cuts time for my productions. I just wish it worked well with my Scope setup (and had motorized faders but that is a different story).

Adrian, you having no problems really gives me hope! Did you take a look at the IRQ settings I got? I have got the Pro and an old Pulsar 2. It was very stable before I installed the Pro.

I am (if I recall it right) not having the Pro board in the first slot but the second (I think the first slot seemed to tight next to the AGP-board).

Anyway, I am using Cubase Sx 3 as well, w dongle for that, Wavelab and Hypersonic.

Any chance at all you could kind of give me detailed specs of your setup (I mean, I actually had problems fitting the S/TDM right due to lack of space)?

Best,

Patrik