Is there *any* fader controller...........

[Shroomz~>]

That's a fine looking mixer Wolf !!!

Rock On

[musurgio]

Dear Wolf,
Because Phase allignment is a must in pro situation and while creamware mixers phase allign only every three mixer channels can you make any better ?
Also would it be possible to implement what creamware has done menaing to"push" certain channels to use dsps from certain card ?
It would be great if somehow there would not be "across" dsp use.
Just like powercore dsp cards do.
When you get close to use one dsp you go to the next instead of using what is left on dsp one and then to dsp two.
I suppose that the phas button on creamware mixers is a sourta of a delay compensation, right ?
Would it be possible to phase compensate even when using say a SPL transient designer which has around 39 samples latency ?
Imagine using the 6 insert slots on a track with plugins that have latency then the there will be problem.
This phase thing is VERY VERY important.
Thank you, consider me as a buyer for your mixer !!
Regards,
Dimitrios

[bcslaam]

That looks really cool Wolf, I just wish it had the capability of more channels. I am using almost all 48 stereo channels in some songs. I am getting REALLY good results from summing in scope. It really does sound superb.

Is there a way of even bettering it. Like making it 48bit internal processing or such?

And yes I agree with Dimitrios, phase compensation is a must. I didn't know that SPL had a 39ms delay. How about vinco, and DAS eqs, Speqtrum? And what's with the every 3 channel implementation currently?

How about making a big brother of the 16 channel, say a 64 channel max that has the ability to elect how many channels you need.

And then put a Speqtrum in each channel.

I like how you will allow channel presets. Will this include plugins and their settings?

Fader groups are more useful for me. Quite often when the mix gets too loud for the main bus I need a way of turning all faders down at once. As well as usual grouping.

A way to interact with the external controller would be great. ie to send the all values of the fader group in visual focus. Handshaking... sort of. Or how bout a midi controllable "bang fader group" button. (send all values in any group of say 8 or 16). The Behringers have groups of eight dont they?

A bigger channel name box for big bold text if possible and a way of colouring channel strips. I am always squinting to find a channel.

In fact I hope you would consider to make it touch screen friendly.

BTW does Scope allow sysex? Wouldn't this be a way of implementing many controls. I would like access to other devices by midi as well, I could see 16ch running out in this situation. Also wouln't this give smoother fader operation with 14bit control.

I understand that you cant be expected to make templates for our controllers.

Thank you.

[astroman]

... I didn't know that SPL had a 39ms delay. ...

as Dimitrios correctly wrote: it's 39 samples, roughly 1 ms at 44.1

every processing that does a lookahead got to have a few samples delay, or how could it lookahead then - by prediction ?

as in the 2448 mixer you can adjust per delays per channel (if required) manually - and that's perfectly ok.
It's an entirely different thing if a 'split channels processing' device like a multiband filter or compressor is inaccurate in it's internal operation by design flaw (afaik it was simply overlooked in early Pulsar devices).

the recent 'rants' about phase-cancelling certain devices may have left the wrong picture. The method was strictly applied as a tool to verify a certain degree of identity and in no way related to any sound quality at all.
As a side'result' it turned out that under some circumstances projects (or even devices during developement) may change their behaviour (almost) arbitrarily for no (immediately) obvious reason.

An 'all channels are absolutely phase coherent' statement is a bit of a nonsense in itself, as it doesn't refer to (the final) sound at all.
Phase alterations are a matter of fact consequence of a lot of processings and rather appreciated in this context
keep it simple - listen

cheers, Tom

[wolf]

Dear Wolf,
Because Phase allignment is a must in pro situation and while creamware mixers phase allign only every three mixer channels can you make any better ?

I don't know how the STM mixers do their phase alignment internally.
My mixer aligns per channel leaving out the inserts, however.
Imo this made most sense, because otherwise you'd not be able to load two or more plugins due to reached dsp limit.

Also would it be possible to implement what creamware has done menaing to"push" certain channels to use dsps from certain card ?

I have no selector like the STM mixers (I don't have access to that function), but it loads as much as possible to the same board.

It would be great if somehow there would not be "across" dsp use. Just like powercore dsp cards do.

The difference here is that PC does no mixing, which definately needs more than one dsp.

When you get close to use one dsp you go to the next instead of using what is left on dsp one and then to dsp two.
I suppose that the phas button on creamware mixers is a sourta of a delay compensation, right ?

It does phase compensation, but both compensation types can be realized with delays, that's correct .. see below.
However in scope world phase comp. is usually realized in a different way than delay comp.

Would it be possible to phase compensate even when using say a SPL transient designer which has around 39 samples latency ?
Imagine using the 6 insert slots on a track with plugins that have latency then the there will be problem.
This phase thing is VERY VERY important.

indeed, but here you are talking about delay compensation, not phase compensation.
phase compensation: alignment between two channels (stereo)
delay compensation: alignment between mixer channels, sends and busses

I didn't implement delay comp., because it uses a lot of of ressources, cannot be done automatically (because the plugins don't report their internal latency) and is not that critical like phase alignment of stereo channels.
Usually it is easier and much more dsp friendly to just delay that channel via the sequencer, if needed.

That looks really cool Wolf, I just wish it had the capability of more channels.

I feared that request already

Is there a way of even bettering it. Like making it 48bit internal processing or such?

No, 32bit integer is the max possible bitdepth.

And yes I agree with Dimitrios, phase compensation is a must. I didn't know that SPL had a 39ms delay. How about vinco, and DAS eqs, Speqtrum?

I don't know for the others, but SpEQtrum has no internal latency.

How about making a big brother of the 16 channel, say a 64 channel max that has the ability to elect how many channels you need. And then put a Speqtrum in each channel.

That alone would eat up 3 15dsp boards. Even with 16 channels I have no problem to fill up 99% very quickly
There are some reasons, why I did a 16channel and not a bigger version. 1st the trouble of distributing the dsp usage over several boards is minimized. The phase aligning stuff is much more straightforward. If I want to route let's say a drum group into it, I use the dynamic mixer feeded to my mixer avoiding trouble with reallocating dsp usage, etc. Finally everything fits on one screen showing all stuff at a glance, which wouldn't be possible with 48 channels (I don't like switching through windows).

I like how you will allow channel presets. Will this include plugins and their settings?

Yes (excl. the modular shell), but me beeing an idiot removed that feature for some reason I don't remember. It takes a lot of time readding it ..

Fader groups are more useful for me. Quite often when the mix gets too loud for the main bus I need a way of turning all faders down at once. As well as usual grouping.

I use the busses as a kind of fader group, but I understand that this might come unhandy with 48 and more channels.

A way to interact with the external controller would be great. ie to send the all values of the fader group in visual focus. Handshaking... sort of.

This works already for all midi sending devices in scope while project startup, if the midi channel is the same as the receiving unit.

Or how bout a midi controllable "bang fader group" button. (send all values in any group of say 8 or 16). The Behringers have groups of eight dont they?

Can't you switch groups with the BCR ? For what you need a manual "send value" button then (given scope sended all values out at project start) ?

A bigger channel name box for big bold text if possible and a way of colouring channel strips. I am always squinting to find a channel.

no wonder with 48 channels
User defined colours are not possible, but I could offer a switch between lets say 4 colours. Would that be sufficient ?

In fact I hope you would consider to make it touch screen friendly.

What is needed for supporting that ?

BTW does Scope allow sysex? Wouldn't this be a way of implementing many controls. I would like access to other devices by midi as well, I could see 16ch running out in this situation. Also wouln't this give smoother fader operation with 14bit control.

No Sysex support on scope, however 14bit is pitchbend not sysex (still the mixer uses 7bit controller only).

cheers
Wolfgang

[kylie]

While we're at it, just a short plunch from me ..

I'll release a mixer, I'm working on since two years, somewhen next year with following features (just some):
- 16 mono or stereo channels (switchable)
[...]

uh, I'm curious about that .some estimations for the price already?
and, hm while I read the other comments... any hints on resource requirements? I don't have a 14/15 dsp board...

- mute groups would be nice
- control with a kenton possible
(- maybe a version with 24ch, if that is able to run on 2 6dsp card teamed up, but it's no must for me )

-greetings, markus-

[kylie]

In fact I hope you would consider to make it touch screen friendly.

What is needed for supporting that ?

probably huuuuge buttons you can hit without fear of pressing 4 others at the same time

[bcslaam]

Hi Wolf thanks for answers.

Can't you switch groups with the BCR ? For what you need a manual "send value" button then (given scope sended all values out at project start) ?

I guess there would be controllers that would remember the values from startup independant of which roup is active but, it would mean that other means of control may not be reflected.

no wonder with 48 channels
User defined colours are not possible, but I could offer a switch between lets say 4 colours. Would that be sufficient ?

yes I do need glasses. 4 colours would be enough

touch screen friendly just means the features are big enough to put your finger on.

[bcslaam]

damm quote stuff went all wrong

sorry for my incompetance, muso fingers

[hubird]

well, you just need a touch screen, that's all...

[Shroomz~>]

Wolf, would it be possible for you to make a cut-down 8-channel version in which each channel is assigned to a dsp, like ch.1-dsp1, ch.2-dsp2 etc? Or is that what you're doing anyway dsp distribution wise?

[wolf]

uh, I'm curious about that .some estimations for the price already?

I'v not really thought about that, probably somewhere around 100 Eur or even below.

and, hm while I read the other comments... any hints on resource requirements? I don't have a 14/15 dsp board...

It does use a small little bit more ressources than the STM2448 due to complete stereo routing, changeable insert order, etc..
Anyway for serious mixing a 30 dsp at least is recommended, regardless if with the STM series or mine.
However a 12 dsp setup like yours might suffice as well, but you won't be able to load that much dsp-heavy plugins.

- mute groups would be nice

How much ? 4 or 6 or more ?

- control with a kenton possible

If it can send & receive absolute midi controllers, you just need to set it up once and save the mixer with its assignments (or load a preset) and there you go.

(- maybe a version with 24ch, if that is able to run on 2 6dsp card teamed up, but it's no must for me )

As mentioned above, if you wanna use dsp-heavy plugins like the warp verbs you are running quickly out of dsp with a 12 dsp setup even with the STM series. Adding 8 channels also means a complete mixer rebuild, which I just don't have time for. I.e. making 32 channel version would be easier as it means to just doubling what's there and making some circuit changes.

touch screen friendly just means the features are big enough to put your finger on.

well, big buttons and such somehow condraticts the goal, the mixer was build for: to gain as much as possible screen estate, while having all important stuff in front of your eyes.
Can you use a pencil on touch screens ?

Wolf, would it be possible for you to make a cut-down 8-channel version in which each channel is assigned to a dsp, like ch.1-dsp1, ch.2-dsp2 etc? Or is that what you're doing anyway dsp distribution wise?

Yes, this is partly how it works. In another way said, on one dsp are as much as possible channels collected, but each channel will never spread to another dsp. This is also true for busses and sends. On the other hand the inserts don't use this forced allocation as you weren't able to insert dsp-heavy plugins then.

cheers
Wolfgang

[katano]

As mentioned above, if you wanna use dsp-heavy plugins like the warp verbs you are running quickly out of dsp with a 12 dsp setup even with the STM series. Adding 8 channels also means a complete mixer rebuild, which I just don't have time for. I.e. making 32 channel version would be easier as it means to just doubling what's there and making some circuit changes.

then i vote for the 32 channel version!!

greez
roman

[kylie]

hi wolf,

uh, I'm curious about that .some estimations for the price already?

I'v not really thought about that, probably somewhere around 100 Eur or even below.

then I should start saving cents right now . as I understand, you still have some things to develop, so that fits my plans.

However a 12 dsp setup like yours might suffice as well, but you won't be able to load that much dsp-heavy plugins.

I have another xtc to add, so 18 is possible (kinda) easily . the next step would be much more expensive...

- mute groups would be nice

How much ? 4 or 6 or more ?

4 is absolute sufficient, if I had to say something...
in fact, I had use for 3 right now, but well, growing possibilities lead to rising demands...

- control with a kenton possible

If it can send & receive absolute midi controllers, you just need to set it up once and save the mixer with its assignments (or load a preset) and there you go.

I'm not experienced with making presets. but I think right here would be a good start to learn

Adding 8 channels also means a complete mixer rebuild, which I just don't have time for. I.e. making 32 channel version would be easier as it means to just doubling what's there and making some circuit changes.

yeah, I'm fine with that. if I'd run out of dsp capacity anyway, it wouldn't make much sense for me. 16ch is great, and if then 32ch version can be stripped down by disabling channels, it's sufficient, I think

-greetings, markus-

[garygiles]

Hi Wolf

This looks like it could be a great mixer.

I have a couple of questions, sorry if they have been answered already.
How many bus outputs will it have?
Will it be possible to route a single input channel to all bus outputs?

Thanks

Gary

[wolf]

How many bus outputs will it have?

it comes with four busses and four auxes, if you mean that.

Will it be possible to route a single input channel to all bus outputs?

no, but you can use the auxes for this (with the benefit of having volume control for each aux send).

btw, a 32channel version won't come with the initial release, but might happen in a future version.

best
Wolfgang

[manfriday]

any estimate as to when we'll see it available?

[wolf]

any estimate as to when we'll see it available?

well .. the multi midi implementation spoiled the party somehow.
But I expect it to be ready in about a month .. hopefully with a complete manual .. there has happened soooooooo much since the pic above.

best
Wolfgang