Subhuman... why did you pick Logic over VST?

sinix · Post by **sinix** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:08 pm

Right off the bat, please, no flame wars or "mines better than yours".

Ive been with VST for 3-4 years now, but other things intrigue me. I like learning new things. I fully understand the main difference between platforms for each, but what sealed the deal for you and others?

I work with half guys that use Logic and the other half that use VST, so it pays to have the ability to get my head around both.

Does it just fit your style of working better? On a day to day basis are the results dramatically better? or is it more a raw "my personality gets along better with this one?"

Cubase seems "logical" and fits my style of working. I have no thoughts that getting Logic 5 will suddenly make me any better! It's just nice to hear honest opinions about dedicated Creamware users on other sequencer platorms. I love the idea of Logic Control.. Mackie makes wonderful equipment.

I do think the first 4-6 months of Logic 5 will have some growing pains, like anything else.

Can you give me some real pro's and con's over each package? And some *personal* comments as well (trust me, I won't be offended).

It's nice to hear what like minded, intelligent people have to say!

Any info vary much welcomed!

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:14 pm

Two words? Stability & Soundquality. Cubase crashed every couple minutes when I was using it back in the early 3.xx days. Logic, on the other hand almost never crashes. I tested the audio engine with Cubase & Logic, and Logic had a much fuller sound. It's been awhile, and these sorts of things are hard to describe, but to me & the friends in the room listening, Cubase sounded "duller" in the highend and somehow messed up the sound of even basic .WAV files. Comparing them to the same .WAV file in SoundForge & Logic yielded surprising results -- something in the Cubase audio engine, to my (admittedly "unprofessional") ears seemed wrong. I didn't like the sound. I can also sometimes tell when something was mixed with Cubase or Nuendo (they both have the same engine as far as I heard when I tested Nuendo 1.0). Anyway, for me, that was the selling point -- that, and Cubase was really simple, I figured it out pretty quickly, where as with Logic, it had so many options, I wanted something I could grow into instead of outgrow.

But really it was how buggy and crashy Cubase was for me, back in my early days with one of the first echo Laylas (was one of my studio mates actually), it was just a nightmare...

Finally, I don't really use VSTis, so any VSTi advantages Cubase has doesn't matter to me at all - "simple" stereo output from a VST instrument would probably be fine - but I to this day don't use VSTis (I did demo a bunch of the popular ones and wouldn't use any of them except maybe the Waldorf PPG - but I already own Waldorf hardware)

Anyway that's my subjective opinion. I'd be curious to hear what others have to say on the subject.

sinix · Post by **sinix** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:20 pm

Thank you for some informed and well thought out opinions.

Cubase 3.7 was pretty bad... I find 5.1x very stable. I use some vsti's like Battery, Reaktor and FM7, so that it important to me. Logic seems like a very nice package indeed, but the grass always seems greener on the other side.

Thank You

TOO-FOO · Post by **TOO-FOO** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 1:33 am

Hi, I was a Heavy Cubase user where the Atari stability World was around and I think it was the better software around the world for sequencing (intuitive at least better than Notator in my opinion of course), then I had to update about five years ago to PC/Mac World for obvious reason, and then my nigthmare start I started "logically" with Cubase Audio and sorry but all I can say about it is PROBLEMS, sync problems, audio stabilitty problems, CPU Performance Problems. Really I almost quit music cause all that frustrating PROBLEMS, like a year late figthing with Cubase a friend of mine move to Logic Audio, and Wooooooooow everything was like in the old Atari years stability, quality performing etc...

Well I really don´t know wath it is but everything with Logic is working perfect (no crashes, midi and audio sync perfect etc...) maybe for a Cubase user like me the learning curve was a little hard because Logic has a too personal interface, but after 2 or three weeks exploring seriously Logic wooooow, woooow, woooow, I can say NO PROBLEMS ANYMORE.

P.D.: Just a personal opinion, i hope nobody get mad about this it´s my personal experience.

Bye....

sandrob · Post by **sandrob** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 1:51 am

i was working with cubase in atari and about 1.5 year ago i bought my first pc and i start with cubase 5.0 - without any problem. i had problems with pulsar - never with cubase?!
plaese be kind and explain to me how is possible that logic sound's better if use same drivers?! where is the diference?!
i have my song here. please, tell me do you hear "cubase sound".... ha, maybe i'm lier and maybe i do this in logic?! you for sure can hear diference?!

sandro

[ This Message was edited by: sandrob on 2002-02-06 04:06 ]

JoeKa · Post by **JoeKa** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 2:47 am

Pooof. I have to admit that I´m using Cubase and I´m not that firm within Logic, but I can definitely say that the interface of Cubase seems more logical and clear to me. Logic might still be a tiny bit better in the matters of audio-handling, but Cubase is definitely more advanced with MIDI.
One important argument is the support, where steinberg at least continuosly updates and gets bugfixes done, but emagic´s support is absolutely poor, almost no support at all, much much worse than CW-support ever was.
And for the better implemented VST-engine, Cubase stays my favourite.

PS.: Sandro... what the heck is THAT piece of music?

I almost fell of my chair of laughing. That´s not serious, is it?

[ This Message was edited by: JoeKa on 2002-02-06 02:56 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 2:50 am

It seems true to my ears... that cubase 4 definitely had a signature sound. But who knows? I moved to XP, and now I work on Nuendo. It may still have that sound, but whatever it is, I must have learned to mix to compensate for it. Seems to me, there's no need to go thru the hassle of changing platforms unless there's something you definitely can't live with. But then again, it's always good to keep you eyes opened and check out your options once in a while.

But bear in mind that all I use the software for is to use it as an recording device. So as with Subhuman, the DXi and VSTi stuff don't really matter to me. I still haven't used any native effects either. Heavy users of either of these might have a different opinion. The closest I got to native effects, was using DP3 effects and Protools TDMs (or was it RTAS, I forget) for work. Which wasn't too bad really. Maybe I'd give VST effects a try someday. But since I use the software as a recording device, I'm inclined to stay away from Cubase engine... I dunno why, maybe I can do a more scientific anaylsis. But untill I get some numbers, I'd stick to saying it's just a personal preferrence.

But it is true the audio engine can make a difference.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-02-06 02:59 ]

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:44 am

I've used Cubase since it came out on Atari many years ago. I've never used VST.
1,5 years ago i had a large amount of money to spend on a new computer and i chooe Logic.
Why ?
My main reason was that i can't stand all the windows in Cubase! They are all over the place.
My favourite program is Protools. 2 windows! All you need. I felt that Logic was "better" in that respect.
I was considering Protools LE (limited budget) but then your stuck with Digidesign HW, no creamware card (we can't have that,can we) no VSTi support etc. so i decided against it
I'm not very satisfied with Logic either!
The automation sucks etc.
That will change for the better in Logic 5.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:33 am

I agree, no need to change from your comfort zone if you're getting work done in your chosen program.

Sandro - nice track.

Sound quality between programs doesn't have too much to do with the driver (although some programs can use 32float driver etc) but actually the audio engine and the way it combines the tracks could vary. But try for yourself - do you have Soundforge? Load a full frequency .WAV into there, and into Cubase, and compare carefully on nice studio monitors. Maybe it's fixed since 5.x but if you listen carefully and hear the difference... Anyway, this was an old test I did, who knows if it's still valid. And you're right, Logic is far from perfect but I can't even remember the last time it crashed or malfunctioned.

sandrob · Post by **sandrob** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:34 am

thanks, sub!

i can't tell nothing about logic and soundforge because i never try this programs.
i use cubase/wavelab without problems but don't feel good when i read that some others programs sounds "better"!
hm, maybe is time that you do new test with (new)cubase?!

sandro

RedSun · Post by **RedSun** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:08 pm

I've tried both and here are my conclusions:

Cubase: I too think that the sound engine has some problems. The high ends sound kinda blurred. Like if there was some excessive dithering somewhere in the processing path. I've also had some serious stability problems during the few days I've tried it. Off course, VST support is the best. It's their standard after all...

Logic: It sounds great and is amazingly flexible. The only problem for me is that all that flexibility comes with a disadvantage that could easily be fixed: the interface. Logic has an interface that's anything but logic. Maybe it's just me but having to click somewhere vaguely around some items to activate some pull down menus that weren't there before you clicked just don't seems very intuitive. Multi-outs in VST would be appreciated too. Still, it's probably going to be my favourite tool once I get the hang of it.

sandrob: You can get Sound Forge's demo at <a href="http://www.sonicfoundry.com/products/Ne ... dry.com</a>.

RedSun .:.

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[ This Message was edited by: RedSun on 2002-02-06 17:09 ]

Round1 · Post by **Round1** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 11:12 pm

I think the 'key' to Logic is learning & using 'key(board) commands.....(geddit??....Key!........Keyboard!.....the 'Key' to logic.......aww forget it......I'll shut up now)

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:08 am

Curious sub, is that for mixdown in cubase or straight out using it as a recording deck or both? I use Nuendo, but only as a recording deck and for automation but not mixing or eq, effects, vsti's etc. I've also been burnt by cubase 3.7 automation before and I'm never going back. Any info on automation improvements in vst 5 or logic was very thin on the ground at the time I was looking for advice before going to Nuendo.

I've also heard about problems with the vst engine but only when using the mix busses, the way cubase handles pan law and summing. I do all the mixing in Pulsar because I never liked the sound of the eq's etc in cubase. Maybe this is why?

P.S. Excellent polished little ditty there sandrob

I reckon shorten the intro a little, there's a little "click" in there somewhere too, and send it off for airplay

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:41 am

I use Logic and I have to also say that the sound is better than the Steinberg products. I've A-B'd them against each other, and Logic simply sounded more open and sparkling, Cubase just sounded 'out of focus' and slightly muddy. This was v5 by the way. I haven't tried Nuendo. The reason for this is simple - digital audio is a series of complex mathematical data, and the way each software handles it with its mixing algorithms is crucial. I've heard many engineers assure me that Logic sounds a lot more true than Protools even (I can't verify this from personal experience since I have none with Protools but I certainly believe my sources, who have serious skills).

There's a few other points too where Logic beats Cubase/Nuendo to a pulp. Basically the FX you get in Cubase/Nuendo are a joke compared to the ones in Logic. I couldn't live without the Logic FX now, and I use them WAY more than any other DX/VST stuff (with the exception perhaps of the Reverb, but even that is very useable on atmospherics, but IMHO useless on drums/percussion).

Regarding some common arguments against Logic, the VST issues are almost all dealt with - high-res automation and midi note on/off to VST plugins is introduced in Logic 5. The multi-out issue will be fixed in a sub-release. Also the interface - while it may seem weird at first, all it takes is a bit of manual-reading and it's sussed. The interface is designed for speed of operation rather than being useable at 'first glance'. I'd rather spend a one-off few hours reading a manual than waste precious time during creative periods doing cumbersome tasks. The multi-window mixer in Cubase is a joke - who the hell wants to have a whole large window for EACH channel's EQ and insert/send FX details?!

I could go on and on about Logic but please bear in mind I'm not up emagic's ass (in fact I actually don't like them at all, they just happen to make some excellent tools). There are of course a few downsides regarding Logic - in 4.x the automation is severely lacking (although this is fixed in 5.0) and yes, there are some bugs (it's a MYTH that Logic is bug-free). However it is light years ahead of Cubase/Nuendo.

peace

dblbass · Post by **dblbass** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:27 pm

once upon a time it was MOTU performer for me, then Cubase

now, I've got Logic 5 "in the mail" the distributor assures me.

made the chage partly on a weird instinct, partly on what I've read, partly, maybe 'cause the grass may look greener in the next garden.

time will tell.

samuel40 · Post by **samuel40** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:09 am

i have been a cakewalk sonar user for the past few years and am wondering if anyof you have any thoughts or comparison's between logic and cakewalk. i am considering adding another tools for recording and mixdown, i am leaning towards logic as the only really downside i have heard is the learning curve but i also hear the manual covers that pretty well, i am looking for a better audio recording and mixing tool than sonar. anyone ??? any thoughts appreciated

Post by **hubird** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:47 am

Woowh Sandrop, you can make MONY with that funny track!
Not bad, not bad.

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:03 am

I was following a (decidedly techy) discussion on cubase.net about Cubase vs Logic Soundquality and I there were various tests done and experts called in who all ensured that there was no difference in quality between the two programs but the Cubase panning law default is different from Logic, which makes that you have to mix differently to get the same sound. I do not pretend to really understand all that was said there but when audiofiles are recorded with both packages and then the waveforms graphically compared (which was one of the test they did) and there were no differences, surely you can't argue with that.

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[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2002-02-10 09:05 ]

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:41 pm

On 2002-02-10 09:03, King of Snake wrote:
but when audiofiles are recorded with both packages and then the waveforms graphically compared (which was one of the test they did) and there were no differences, surely you can't argue with that.

Yes, I can argue with that. I'm one of those strange people who actually spend an enormous amount of time testing different audioengines; Paris, Protools, Cubase, Nuendo and Logic.
The problem with the test you mention is that they usally use just a stereo track, or some sinewaves, and that doesn't tell anything about how a given engine sounds.
The real test is using an actual multitrack arrangement and mixing it on all platforms with the same settings and the same plugins.
And when you do that test, the difference is HUGE...

Kim.

kiminet · Post by **kiminet** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 12:50 am

On 2002-02-08 09:09, samuel40 wrote:
i have been a cakewalk sonar user for the past few years and am wondering if anyof you have any thoughts or comparison's between logic and cakewalk. i am considering adding another tools for recording and mixdown, i am leaning towards logic as the only really downside i have heard is the learning curve but i also hear the manual covers that pretty well, i am looking for a better audio recording and mixing tool than sonar. anyone ??? any thoughts appreciated

I often use Samplitude by MAGIX for audiorecording.It is execellent.Complete tool for recording mixing,mastering and burning.The week point is the midisequenzer,and the automation needs to be builded out a little more.
I´ll comment the cubase/logic audioquality discussion with a question:what tastes best ?lamb meat or ox meat?
I definetly think that lambmeat is best and I´m supportet by scientific results.

Kim

[ This Message was edited by: kiminet on 2002-02-11 09:29 ]

[ This Message was edited by: kiminet on 2002-02-11 09:31 ]