what would you buy with ten grand buget?

[greenbluegold]

AD/DA is not at all the limiting factor in digital recording these days, and the conversion that the scope cards can do is perfectly fine.

There is a much greater difference in sound quality when changing from different microphones abnd preamps than between contempory decent+ quality converters. I think AD/DA is where a lot of people get fleeced these days. It's also worth considering that convertors depreciate in value far more than quality microphones or preamps.

[greenbluegold]

[quote="Mr Arkadin"]Still ,Mehdi has a point. i mean blowing a third of your budget just on the mic seems ludicrous. If a £1000 mic doesn't sound good then the manufacturer needs shooting. If i was going to spend £3000 on a mic i would expect a blow job thrown in.[/quote]

Well, it's a point I disagree with. If you'd like to set up a studio and your budget is sufficient to do it to a competitively professional degree. Why not do it? If the price is too high, then one can look second hand -- I saw a cu41 go for ~$1400 recently on ebay. But the new price would be worth it too.

There is bound to be places in London where one can go and try out all these toys, and I'd recommend taking a listen.

[Mr Arkadin]

Well, it's a point I disagree with. If you'd like to set up a studio and your budget is sufficient to do it to a competitively professional degree. Why not do it? If the price is too high, then one can look second hand -- I saw a cu41 go for ~$1400 recently on ebay. But the new price would be worth it too.

There is bound to be places in London where one can go and try out all these toys, and I'd recommend taking a listen.

Well there's places in London where i can get the blow job part. i would buy a mic for $1400, but not £1400. There's a big difference. i'm not saying you're wrong, just that a £1500 mic should sound bloody amazing - do you get double the 'wow' factor doubling the price? Then spend £3000 on an amazing mic pre amp and wham! two thirds of the guy's budget has gone. i just think some common sense needs to be applied. Of course if that's what he wants to do then fine, should leave him about thruppence for his monitors and amp.

[spacef]

3) If in fact it is to be a bedroom recording environment (which I don't suspect it is) acoustic treatment becomes even less of an issue as furniture and other typical bedroom components usually do a pretty nice job at breaking up frequency nodes and other problem acoustics.

I am afraid this is really a legend (like the egg packs which remove at some frequency, but do nothing, or add on otther, in addition to be easily lit for massive studio fire ).

We talk about different things in room tretment: isolation from external noise (nothing to do with furniture, but with where is the room like near a road or not, neigbours etc), and reverberation (that is part of acoustic treatment, ie, removing them).


An acoustician calculated that to get the same absorbing coeficient as a good bass trap and other absorber, you would need too much furniture in the room and you can't get in anymore.
I have several rooms of diffrent size and with diffreent furnitures. The one with the most stuff (my bedroom) is the one with the longest reverb. And it's only cloth and books and stuff like that....
The furniture, what is in/on, what is made of... can be more expensive than pro equipment

Ah, here is the article, there is another with calculation on the number of furniture (and theiur kind) and what they do to reverberation....,
you can do it, but then you can't get in the room anymore.
http://www.akustar.com/dossiers/407_tech.htm it is really pro (but in french...).
With only the furniture (graph at the bottom) he managed to get only 60% reverb off (as he still need to get inside the room).
I have a friend who put matresses behind him to try to stop reflections... it is useless.

As for audio technica mics -- they are certainly offer good performance for price, I have a couple of them, but I doubt they'd perform dramatically 'better' than the Rode N2 -- although they may be more suitable for certain applications according to taste.

I had both in fact.
I would probably choose the NT2 over the 4040 for a male voice. The AT4040 can be a bit metallic, but for some voices it is better, that's the choice for some females. It depends on the source.
I have a very fat sound with nt2+meek preamp (mq3 + had vc1qcs) yes, i forgot to mention it (+psyQ....)

However, a Sanken CU41 will sound fantastic on most anything, is a cardioid with very little proximity effect and so would be an excellent choice for recording just about any source in a reasonable room.

it is less than 1500 € now, new... not second hand (in FR at least).

hey what about a decibelometer, it's only 150€and allows to find the best/worst spots in a room.

Or call a pro acoustician, it is usually not expensive for a diagnosis and can be really worth it.

But, hey, that's just how "I" would do it in MY OWN environment (at the studio they have 1 meter concrete and rockwool walls and you can still here outside when mixing loud.... butin the vocal booth it is silent and they have special stuff they can put in and out for more or less reverberation (which is a good thing to have if you can master it).
For everyone it is a particular case...

[greenbluegold]

[quote="Mr Arkadin"]
Well there's places in London where i can get the blow job part. i would buy a mic for $1400, but not £1400. There's a big difference. i'm not saying your wrong, just that a £1500 mic should sound bloody amazing - do you get double the 'wow' factor doubling the price? Then spend £3000 on an amazing mic pre amp and wham! two thirds of the guy's budget has gone. i just think some common sense needs to be applied. Of course if that's what he wants to do then fine, should leave him about thruppence for his monitors and amp.[/quote]

The best sex is free, but good microphones cost money. I ran a tally for what I recommended --

he'd get a professional quality mic, preamp, outboard effects, and powered 2:1 monitors for less than half of his budget. There was an additional $5000 thrown at gear to make sounds with (Since the question was how *I'd* spend the money, an analog modular and a cheap sampler) and enough money leftover to treat a room, and I don't mean with egg cartons.

I'd say a 1/3 of your budget on microphones and preamps is about right, and since the plan is to record vocal music without the need to mic up a whole band or drum kit, then one top quality versatile microphone would be a reasonable.

I second the recommendation on getting someone to come in and do a proper analysis of what treatment the room needs.

[spacef]

here is a translation (babel fish translation) of the end of the article found on http://www.akustar.com/dossiers/407_tech.htm ....
Sorry, i am not against anyone neither (these religious discussions are always getting hot quickly

starting with a room with 1 second reverberation .

Some will say: one can make economy of the acoustic treatment by adding pieces of furniture. Yes, it is exact. But to approach the desired reverberation, it would be necessary to place in this part of 20 square meters: 4 settees, 8 armchairs, 3 libraries, 6 curtains out of velvet, 3 large carpets, 4 coffee tables, 3 pieces of furniture hifi, 6 enclosures, 4 house plants, still of the executives to the walls and much of curios… Stop! one cannot enter any more! Also, I made calculation for you: 0,161* (V initial - (3,5*V furnitures)) /0.04* (S initiale - (3,5*S hidden)) +0.55* (3,5*S furniture) 0,161* (85- (3,5*3)) /.04* (85- (3,5*5)) + 0.55* (3,5*8) = 0,35 second. .

S= surface (initial or covered by the furniture) V= volume (isitial - volume of furniture).
Numbers are obsorbing coefficient of the furniture used for the experiment.


and if someone's looking for egg treatment (in case you want to remove the 700 mhz only....):
http://www.akustar.com/dossiers/402_tech.htm

[spacef]

he'd get a professional quality mic, preamp, outboard effects, and powered 2:1 monitors for less than half of his budget. There was an additional $5000 thrown at gear to make sounds with (Since the question was how *I'd* spend the money, an analog modular and a cheap sampler) and enough money leftover to treat a room, and I don't mean with egg cartons.

I'd say a 1/3 of your budget on microphones and preamps is about right, and since the plan is to record vocal music without the need to mic up a whole band or drum kit, then one top quality versatile microphone would be a reasonable.

I second the recommendation on getting someone to come in and do a proper analysis of what treatment the room needs.

Thanks for seconding that..
I didn't say it is not good to get the best of the better mics (and vice-versa),
I just said it will be very disapointing in what you can do with it if the room is not adapted... and that, in that particluar sense, such investment would be worthless (what is a mic that you can't record with.... if you get noises from your neighbors/surrounding or lots of reverbs (early reflection) from the room !! .
That's why i think it is important to get acoustic/isolation treatment, and that the mic quality comes after that (i would buy all microphones on earth if i had the budget...).
And it is expensive ... a pro acoustician is useful because he can determine the few spots that need treatment , and make the final treatment less expensive.
And only after that, the super mics will deliver what they are made for (in the recording i mean).

Sorry for the eggs, it was just a joke (but many people still think it works).

[Smix]

thanks again for all your input the many issues raised of are concern and willed be looked @
i do intend 2 buy a Quality mic and the sanken is very interesting i already have a pair of Genelec mon + sub that i like so new monitors can wait if need be. can xcite link with older cards? and or can you link more than one xcite? also what other mic pre amp would work well with Sanken.
thanks 4 great forum

[greenbluegold]

If I were choose to another preamp to compliment the focusrite voicemaster, I would go for one that aims to be more transparent. I would consider the sytec mp4x, focusrite green, DAV electronics, and others of that ilk. While I might drop 3k on a microphone, I'd be hard pressed to do so on a preamp. I'd prefer a maker that doesn't spend a bundle on advertisement, so I favor Sytek and DAV.

[garyb]

better to spend 3k on the mic pre than the mic...

even better to spend the money on the room...

[greenbluegold]

[quote="garyb"]better to spend 3k on the mic pre than the mic...
.[/quote]

What's your reasoning for this (not to attack the idea, but it's just goes against my experience). I've used a number of good preamps in the 900-4000 range sytek, millenium, neve, etc... and so long as they provide clean gain with good definition the differences in performance between the lower and highest prices weren't so pronounced as the difference in quality between a $900 and $3000 microphone (through a good preamp).

Making a high performance microphone requires a greater investment in engineering and especially manufacturing than does a preamp. Most anyone with electronics experience and access to the components could clone a neve from schematics, while one would be hard pressed to manufacture say a 6 micron titanium capsule. Only a few companies in the world maintain a first rate microphone engineering program. It's my way of ranking an economies aesthetic/industrial productivity. But of course, as it's become clear, I am a microphone nut.

And I'm not trying to put down the accomplishments of innovative esoteric preamp audio engineers. In fact I support that you buy preamps made by a preamp guru's small company.

[Shroomz~>]

What do you all think of this setup for £10,000 ??

Neumann TLM 49 - £900
Avalon M5 Mic Pre - £1000
Bricasti M7 Reverb - £2500
Scope Pro (Plus I/O plate version) 14dsp card with Mix 'n' Master pack - £500 (2nd hand)
Apogee Rosetta 2 channel AD/DA Converter - £1200
PC system - £1000 (approx')
Mackie HR626 Active monitors - £1100
2 x AKG K 271 MK II Studio Headphones - £200
Rane Hc4 Headphone Console - £300

Speaker stands - £100 (approx')
Mic stand - £25
Cables - £200 (approx')
Self built vocal booth - £600 - £700 (total build cost including acoustic treatment of interior)
Acoustic treatment of mixing enviroment - £500 (approx')

TOTAL COST - £10,100 - £10,200 (approx')

That's a pretty complete little system with some really nice gear.

It's a little over budget already & I might have missed something, but if you don't need the Mackie monitors it'll actually be under budget by a fair bit which would allow for the Sanken mic or a more expensive Neumann. You could also buy a £1000 Lexicon instead of the Bricasti Model 7 which would easily allow you to buy an XITE-1 instead of the Scope Pro.

That setup's making my mouth water.

Mark

[Shroomz~>]

Actually, top quality cables for that setup would cost more than £200.

Mark

[Sounddesigner]

For me my bigger focus would be XITE-1 and a good computer when first trying to upgrade my studio to the big league. I also think your dealing with the core when you buy them and they cover MAAANY bases. I would not buy Monitors or microphone cause i already have decent ones and 10k is not enough money for me to consider upgrading them when the ones i have are of good quality and i prefer to get the most out of them, and i do have some room treatment already BUT i would consider adding to that because that is hugely important (but i would'nt break the bank investing in it cause there are good solutions at affordable prices). I have Event Studio Precision 8 monitors and Shure ksm32 microphone already and to get much better then them is too costly. Especially when i'm not making money yet and other surprise expenses are always popping up. I'd look into a good Midi controller aswell since i don't have one and a upgrade to Sonar 8 since it is a engine performance and workflow improvement that should be pretty significant. So for me it would be XITE-1 first then much better computer (Both desktop and laptop) with sufficient power for my needs and growth, then more room treatment and good midi-controller and Sonar 8. All this would be around $7500, then i'd spend about $500 on some of the Plugins i want to compliment my current arsenal and save the last $2000 in the bank for contigencies. Ofcourse we all are different Musicians/Engineers with different needs so difference will be in what we buy, plus the gear we already have and the lenghth of time we had it affects our buying decisions.

1. XITE-1
2. Computers; both desktop and laptop.
3. Midi controller
4. Room treatment
5. Sonar 8
6. Plugins


All can be bought for about $8000 and i'd still have $2000 saved.

[spacef]

once i heard a Beta58A in an avalon preamp and i was really impressed by the sound (i have the same, but not in an avalon - but it was for reggae/hip hop/dub , and that's the sound the guy was looking for (kind of industry standard over here for these styles - eventhough they would use the sm58 for its roughness, not the new series).
I am not sure i would favor the preamp over the mic though... I mean, a very good microphone in a decent preamp is probably more versatile than a decent mic in a fantastic preamp. no? i don't think the preamp can change the dynamics that the capsule can deal with, the details etc... may be for voice it can be ok, but it will not fit all the other possible recording (it won't wortk on a nylon guitar for example, it will do unpleasant "boing boings" on the nylon string attacks... and even if i have a few flamenco LPs that have that "boing boing" thing, it is quite likely that the players/producer would have loved a better microphone ( i would have preffered myself, as a listener...).
On nylon guitar , I have the same unpleasant effect when using stage mics (like the Pr40), but not when using the valve microphone (a fletcher designed TB47, not sold anymore, but maintenance is still possible and very cheapo which is cool (less than 10£ to replace the valve last year) It is an excellent microphone for anything acoustic (voice, guitars) and i never used PsyQ with this one (the only one where my own oicve begins to sound like something, which is not the case on neuman, rode, AT etc, (but please note i said MY woice, someone else may need something else: i am not a very good vocalist). Nylon guitar is a pretty good test for mic dynamics and details, sound etc, because it quickly sounds bad if the mic is not sufficient (i don't have much else to put them on hard test though....no drums or stuff like that (and i probably would dare trying drums on this valve mic, too afraid to break it with too much pressure, as it cannot be replaced...) ...
Well, good luck !

[hifiboom]

oil.

[garyb]

you'd be amazed that there are $150 mics and $2000 mics using the same capsule. the electronics and case will be much nicer in the expensive mic....

here's a fairy tale:
in the old days, when engineers wore white lab coats and all graduated universities like MIT( ), there was no eq. engineers worked for big studios owned by the label which had a locker with every mic and mic pre made(or at least the major assortment). the engineer would mate mic and pre to obtain the tonal quality and character required by the artist and producer. all signal went directly from mic to pre to tape.

later, eq was invented. the idea was that one mic and pre could do almost all the work, saving money. it's always been known, however, that mic to pre to tape is the best method.

all mics are good!
a great preamp shows off the good qualities of most mics.
the wrong preamp can make a very nice mic seem ordinary.

$10,000 isn't squat when purchasing audio gear. i'd get several moderate quality mics, a great pre, some top flight cable(it's unbelievable what a difference cable can make) and fix the room. you will owe money.

[greenbluegold]

[quote="garyb"]you'd be amazed that there are $150 mics and $2000 mics using the same capsule. the electronics and case will be much nicer in the expensive mic....
[/quote]

That may sometimes be the case (thinking of the "telefunken" scandal a few years back), but just because an unscrupulous company may try and pass off cheaper components with 'vintage' hype, and overcharge people doesn't mean that you can match the performance of a serious microphone with something for a couple hundred dollars. You are not going to find the same capsule in a $150 chinese disposable and a truely top quality, non-mass market microphone maker like schoeps, sanken, dpa, and microtech gefell (amongst others).

[Shroomz~>]

Btw, I'm not sure if any of us have mentioned this so far, but you might want to have a nice compressor in your vocal chain. Opinions will vary widely on what type to go for depending what mic & mic pre you choose, but many big professional studios are still using the classic mic > mic pre > compressor vocal chain before going to AD/DA > DAW. If you don't go for a valve/tube mic pre, you could consider a tube comp to give you that sought after warmth.

Mark

[garyb]

you'd be amazed that there are $150 mics and $2000 mics using the same capsule. the electronics and case will be much nicer in the expensive mic....

That may sometimes be the case (thinking of the "telefunken" scandal a few years back), but just because an unscrupulous company may try and pass off cheaper components with 'vintage' hype, and overcharge people doesn't mean that you can match the performance of a serious microphone with something for a couple hundred dollars. You are not going to find the same capsule in a $150 chinese disposable and a truely top quality, non-mass market microphone maker like schoeps, sanken, dpa, and microtech gefell (amongst others).

it's not about unscrupulous behavior, it's about reality!
two of the chinese factories(777 is one of them) were set up by Neumann before the Chinese revolution. after the revolution, the factories were nationalized and continued to make what is basically a Neumann capsule. it's not crappy, just cheap. there aren't the secrets that once existed in construction techniques. there are no bad mics, just mics that are more suited to one job or another.

maybe those guys you mentioned all make their own capsules which is great, but Manley makes a fantastic mic with a chinese capsule and they aren't the only ones. having one or more of the mics you mentioned is great(i own a few mics of the quality you mentioned, including a soundelux and a vintage RCA44, so i do know what a great mic is about). i said what i said based on the man's budget.