Mixing in scope? Any tips?

[ehasting]

Hello,

I am currently using an iMac with Logic9 for sequencing, and i am rather satisfied with that. I also have a stand alone Mac G4 running with 1xLunar2 and 1xPulsar2 card (scope 4.0).

On the iMac i have a TC Konnekt24D fw interface which works like a charm. Usually i mix everything in logic and bounce it down..
while this works.. i tend to be rather bad in mixing.. and usually solve my "problems" by trowing in plugins on each channel in logic...

i want to learn how to mix more proper and want to route 8 channels out from my TC to the Scope system, then do a mix there and send a stereo track back to the TC to be recorded into logic.

does this makes sense? also what kind of plugins would you recommend for mixing/mastering in scope? both free and commercial..
Since i have a noah ex i am not using the scope for synths that much anymore (except some times i gets creative with modular 3 ) . So i have 3+6 DPS available.

Also, if i have 8 channels going from tc/logic into scope.. how do people usually group their tracks? bass, drums, leads, etc?!

Thanks for any kind of help!

Also.. we should make a scope device archive.. Its kind of hard to find stuff in the forum.. and another page which looks rather nice had a lot of off-site links (this archive should also contains files)... just an idea..

Rgs
Egil / Higen
www.higen.org

[dante]

For mastering, DASGOST ConvolveQ, DAS MASTERIT and BRICKMASTER.

[ChrisWerner]

It got common that grouping the tracks like, Drums, Bass, Guitars, Synths, Vocals,from left to right... but of course you can sort the tracks like you want. This is also the direction where you rough mix a track, first the single drum sounds, then bass and your rhythm parts are done and you go on with the other things. You will always go back to adjust a bit here and there.
Once the rough mix is done, I prefer to sort the audio tracks to sub groups, like your eight tracks that go out from logic to scope.

Maybe you can go out to scope with all single tracks and make the rough mix in scope and go back with the sub groups to Logic?

The sub groups will give you additional insert slots for some dynamic effects, maybe a reverb as send effect, eqing.
But the most advantage with the sub groups is, once you have the rough mix on all single tracks done, you can leave them untouched and have control over the whole track with some faders only, drums here a bit less, guitars there louder...

To re-record the scope tracks back in logic is a safe and common way. Once everything is done, you should consider mastering in scope only, because you have better quality plug ins as the whole vst au world can deliver. Good luck.

[ehasting]

sounds like DAS is the way to go.

regarding feeding single tracks from logic to scope. i do lack of outputs from my soundcard.
it only got 1 adat . but i could feed back 8 track. to logic. its probably best way to store the finish project as mixed 8 track.

but i have 10 analouge into the scope so instead of using my today cheap hw mixer i could probably mix all hardware in scope before going as grouped to logic! the boring part is that i need to boot the noisy mac to just play an instrument.. but i guess changing fan and disk is probably a cheap investment.

[astroman]

imho you can run a G4/400 without the large internal fan - at least a 350 in the office here did for >5 years.
if you only host Scope (with no big extra software running on the Mac) a small SSD will do.

An industrial drive to put on the drive socket of the board is a safe bet, but an adapter for camera cards will also do.
Those cards are a bit unpredictable (as there are lots of versions with different controllers inside), but brands like San, Transcend, Kingston with a 'perfomance number' > 200 are ok. I've had OSX on a 4GB CF in a Mac Mini for a while.
Buy some trash ram (if there isn't enough in the G4) and disable Virtual Memory.
Format the card on the Mac and copy the system folder to check it's bootable. Then move the rest of your stuff, no install needed.
(just make sure that the disk is named like the original one)

cheers, Tom

[ehasting]

Hey Tom,

Great tips regarding the mac!

I have now shopped:

1x TRANSCEND 8GB IDE flash memory
2x MICROMEMORY 512MB PC133 SDRAM

I figured out that 8 gb should be enough, i do use the G4 for some smdi with peak 3+recycle and my emu sampler. But that is temporary audio files (stored on the sampler), and i also have network storage i use with the G4 (so i don't need samples to be stored directly).

I will also disable the fan, which one are you thinking of? And how do i disable it, is it a cable to unplug? or something i need to unmount?

Looking forward to build my own "hardware digital mixer" (DIY edition)


Thanks

Rgs
Egil

[astroman]

yeah, the G4 is a cool box, built like a tank...
iirc I could just unplug the cable, it's probably the red/black twisted one on those photos
the page also contains the 'secret' plugs you need to twist to get the front open (just in case), that's pretty hard to figure out on your own if you've never done it.
The only question that puzzles me would be the PCI performance (for reverb use).
Probably it was never tested on this model as most people use(d) the Quicksilver for audio
(which might be an upgrade option if your system runs really well, but you'd like some more juice. I'm almost certain you could just switch machines, eg put the G4 disk into the Quicksilver and run). Dunno the current prices, but they should be dead cheap...
Did you ever try that masterverb-test ? It's loading an empty project and just add masterverb after masterverb until Scope reports an error. Mostly that error is about PCI bandwidth.

cheers, Tom

[ehasting]

Hey. Found the fan cable..rather easy!

I was able to load 8 masterverb.. Then everythin became so slow.. That i was not able to do anything.. I guess that was the limit.

http://db.tt/j3azMvF

[astroman]

fine, that's a reasonable figure for that old box - to be honest, it's quite good if you consider a 100/133 MHZ FSB...
and you probably run a SCSI card plus networked storage.
Btw the GUI is really slow on that test, so you didn't even reach the max which is indicated by an error.

congrats, Tom

[ehasting]

Btw! Before opening my wallet to the das devices.. Are the compressor and stm 2448 usable? Or not worth using??

[garyb]

DAS devices are quite good, as good as is available. i always use the stm2448, or almost always...

[ehasting]

Another question. When i route my channels through scope.. I cant find a limiter which dowa not allow output over selected value like in logic adaptive limiter.. Do i need the brick wall from das or can i achieve it by some tricks?

[astroman]

sure you need a limiter if you're after it's sound...
but such 'safety' rubbish (as in Logic) is just that - stuff for people who don't know what they are doing.
Never mix overly hot - leave that to the mastering.
Unlike with analog gear it doesn't improve the sound... well, there's some trendy harsh stuff a la mode, but that's just pretending (imho)

cheers, Tom

[ehasting]

Hey,

Good tip regarding not mixing too hot..
But then i move on to mastering stage.. how to do that? Because when you have the mixed down stereo track, you need to push the levels to the top (and probably kill some dynamic).. is this where the Brickmaster Pro comes in?

Or is there any kind of tricks like compressor -> limiter?

rgs
Egil

[ChrisWerner]

Well I am in a constant learning curve which each single new day too but I went well in the past to mix a single track to aprox. -10 dB , the master bus reaches the max. very rarely. In that stage I put a limiter on the master bus to catch up a possible clip.
Then due mastering I aim for a overall dynamic of -12 dB RMS ("felt" loudness). But it depends on the sytle of your music though.

[ehasting]

Sounds good.. i will try to aim for the same, the bass kick with snare tends to punch quiet hard through.
Are you doing the mastering stage in scope? or in software? What tools are you using?

Which tool do you use for calculating the overall RMS? I used wave lab before i moved over to mac.

Rgs
Egil

[astroman]

my statement above about Logic's 'safety rubbish' was a bit harsh, it's probably similiar to what's shown in this video
It's a different software, but the method shown can be applied within any system.
Btw in real world it's slightly less forgiving than demonstrated, but one quickly get's used to set levels accrding to source material.
I often use it for rather 'clean' stuff without intentionally going pumping or over the top.
That would be my final mix or pre-master stage.
After that I'd simply use a set-and-forget loudness maximizer (Sonic Timeworks Mastercomp) with a rather conservative setting.
Optimaster will do similiar, but giving you more control.
I try to set all the sound character in the basic mix by choosing sources (almost never EQ) so only need some loudness in the end.

cheers, Tom

btw just noticed: the thread is in the wrong section - no questions here... oops

[ChrisWerner]

At the moment I record mix and master in Samplitude with vsts only.
But this will change next week when the xite 1 is here.

Then I will go with the stock plug ins from scope Vinco SBC etc. first and see how far I get, but I am sure it will be a remarkable change, compared to the Roger Nichols (RIP) Bundle I use for mastering.
For the RMS I use the real time analyzer from the bundle and hold the RMS peak.

I just aim roughly for the RMS and the final judge will be my ears.

A mastering chain that works for me is a limiter -> EQ -> Comp -> EQ -> some Maximizer, when there is a need, to the end.
When I am lazy I put an analyzer in the first and last slot to see where is something happen in the frequency spectrum.

[ehasting]

Okay.. thanks for all the tips.. this thread is coming back still being useful!

The setup ended up with me using a Motu 828mk2 FW on my IMAC with extra input on adat, allowing me to mix directly on the iMac and logic.

so that is my music making setup. now the G4 Scope mac are being used for fx, and synths. aswell as mastering. well at least i am learning.

I have made a track which i am using to test out different configurations.

Now i have following chain for this version:
SL9000 S (using the Split CH out config) -> Compressor S -> Limiter S
sending out the track from the iMac as a stereo track (using DSP Quattro X), to the scope and back (using SPDIF)
http://goo.gl/K0RzR <.. the track
http://goo.gl/XaUTP <.. old school screenshot of the scope chain.

I think i am rather happy about the result without having any brick wall limiter or anything.. but that would probably help

Hopefully Sonic Core will sell me the master and mix pack with vinco and optimaster for my old Scope 4 system

Feedback and tips on how to improve are welcome!!

Rgs

[ehasting]

Hey,

I just found out DAS had a version 3 of the SSL 9000 plug, and it is great!

So i have made a new version of the mix, now with following chain.

Limiter S -> SL 9000 SC (v3) -> Compressor S -> Limiter S

http://goo.gl/YHZBv

http://goo.gl/OGML0 <-- screenshot

don't know if there was any improvement.. but the v3 felt real good in sense of sound and control..