The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...

[next to nothing]

It's just a nice way of saying that authors should be credited when whole lyrics are cited. For what it's worth i do actually see a message in that poem by Poetic Ninja, but i think I understand it differently than you, which is normal. And probably nothing to discuss either as poems are different to everyone.

[Nestor]

It's just a nice way of saying that authors should be credited when whole lyrics are cited. For what it's worth i do actually see a message in that poem by Poetic Ninja, but i think I understand it differently than you, which is normal. And probably nothing to discuss either as poems are different to everyone.

I’m with you there "Next", you’re right, I would do that from now and on, I swear I didn’t know this guy Poetic Ninja, but I definitely liked this poem and its great meaning. I needed to say something in a particular (non violent) way, and this was perfect for the occasion. One of my proffered English poets is William Blake by the way, and his illustrations are fantastic:

[garyb]

the UN is not a corporation? neither is the EU?

pray tell what kind of organization they are then.
if they are not actual government(if they are, then your national governments don't exist), then under what structure do they operate? are they private companies? if so, who owns them? if they are owned by many(or even a few) who have shares of interest, they're corporations. if they have a charter that allows them to operate, then they are a corporation. if their corporate power is tied to governance, it is fascism by definition.

i know i'm a simpleton. so what of it? there's nothing radical about this. it's not emotional.

if i'm incorrect, prove it to me, if you care enough to get upset. if you can truly explain the error, i'll change my position.

[hubird]

you relly need to learn to pay attention to the message... Make the exercise of understanding the bottomline every time, please

Not understanding the message in posts here is your specialty, my friend.
You not only can't read between the lines, you also are overlooking so often the message in the lines.

You say you love deep throats, oh sorry, I mean deep thoughts, but you only touch the surface of the (wrong) objects.

Tell us more about the real situation in Chile, like NtN asked.
What are the leading today items in the medea, what do people think, what different main positions in politics you have in your country.

You're blaming all American people, by calling them slaves of popular medea, and of course you see yourself as the all knowing enlighted newsreporter who is so kind to warn the rest of the world for the coming Doom.

So tell us about the medea situation in Chile, are there independent papers or newschannels, has Chile independent unions, are strikes normal or tolerated, has anything changed since Pinochet had to leave politics, are political criminals of his regime prosecuted, what about disappeared and tortured people at the time, how does the next generation of both sides live with what their parents did or had to face.

Maybe you should change your name in Newbe, as Nestor implies some experienced wisdom, and, as an admin, restraint, isn't it?

[Nestor]

[hubird]

the UN is not a corporation? neither is the EU?

No, I said both organisations are not fascistic.

You talk like a algorithmics teacher:
A is corporation
B is fascism
C is corporation= fascism

Sorry Garyb, this is too dumb to analyse further, specially if it comes from a well-read person like you.
I don't subscribe the nonsensical assumption that corporation means fascisme just like that, and I don't subscribe the conclusion eighter.

You seem to live in your own radical world, poisened by misinformation and disappointment in the believe your live and your political future can't be determined by yourself and with reason.
Sad for you, I mean it, but it's rather boring to find this preposition the dominant house culture of this public board.


edit: just a typo (can/can't)

[hubird]

Hey Nestor, you think this message from you was respectfull? check it out:

Why Americans Will
Believe Almost Anything

your link was:
http://www.rense.com/general12/believe.htm

[Nestor]

[hubird]

hm?
the lightbulp was invented by Phillips, a Dutch entrepeneur, but what that has to do with your message I don't know.

You still didn't answer the question if your affront of the American people was respectfull.
Maybe this thought is too deep for you?

[garyb]

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

this looks very simple to me.

You talk like a algorithmics teacher:
A is corporation
B is fascism
C is corporation= fascism

a corporation is not fascism, BUT if a corporation is exercising state power, then by definition it's fascism whether that's good or bad. good OR bad.

just because you don't like the word doesn't change reality.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master — that's all."

we all know what happened to Humpty.

please get off of me and back on topic(in an off topic way, i guess).

[Nestor]

With the kind of technology we have today, this war is going to be a nightmare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y2WxU6lCNs

[Nestor]

Israel to delay strike on Iran:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 28,00.html

The heavy load aircraft carrier Enterprise CVN 65 will be reaching the Arabian Sea in a few days joining the CVN 72 Lincoln, CVN 70 Vinson and LHD 8 Makin Island, are they just fishing there?


LHD 8 Makin Island


CVN 70 Vinson


CVN 72 Lincoln


And this, the Enterprise CVN 65, is the last one reaching very closed to Iran:

[garyb]

this doesn't mean that it is actually happening(an attack), this kind of posturing is the exact same thing that was done a few years ago. this certainly can be the actual event this time, though.

[next to nothing]

Jesus, i haven't posted for a week i guess

First off, Nestor, I see you avoid any national issues. My point when i first asked this is pretty simple; How can you fix the world if you don't care about your own society? Is your avoidance due to "i don't really care", "i don't know" , "I think i can make a much bigger difference globally rather than locally" or the worst of them all, "We are all going to die soon or the world will atleast go into a nucelar crisis bcause the elite hates us"? I hope you understand that there is no reason to exaggerate, as whatever you have posted here probably has one or two points, but it kind of lets me down that you don't take any pre-measurments to whatever you want to spread here. No logic breakdowns, crisis maximization etc. is just devalutaing you.

Dude, honestly, you are wasting your energy. from all the links you have posted there is one common idea; "there is a secret organization that hates you and wants to kill you, and there is nothing you can do about it".

Me posting this post probably doesn't help as someone will clarify to you that my postimg is only done to confide or confuse you. Wait for it.

But tell me this, since you asked me earlier; Where do you get your news from?
Oh and again, whats the main issues in Chile? i AM actually curious!

Is the broken lightbulb an illustration saying you are out of ideas? or what do you mean?

To garyB. Thanks for actually putting more "down to earth" posts here than i would have excpected
Regarding UN and EU: There are the very basic differences between those two, as i am pretty sure you know of. You are probaly also aware of capitalism and how it works. USA is as you know not just fiftysomething states, if i am to buy anything from New York i have to obey US taxes and rules. Not just NY taxes and rules, but the central guidelines( Is that what is called federal?). I guess when the states voted to be part of the US (they must have?) it was to ensure that the US could be one huge market rather thatn fifty-something independent states, with one giving better export-rates than the other.

Anyway, Thanks to SC and PZ to keep us updated on the bad news.

[garyb]

first of, anything offtopic that i post is just MY opinion, which i am entitled to. NOTHING that i post, except relating to actual Scope support/help has anything to do with S|C. i would think there is enough intelligence here to see that. some people just enjoy being asshats and other's misery though.

second, the only reason that the EU and UN were mentioned was because they are examples of corporate entities which have been given the power of governance. the differences are not important from that point of view.

third, i agree that fixing one's own yard is to be done before fixing your neighbor's yard. that includes spending time trying to stop others from talking about things that might be something you don't want to talk about, but that is still harmless to discuss. i really can't believe the amount of venom over this thread. Nestor may or may not be overly paranoid, but i don't think it's ever wrong to try to avoid international conflagrations, even if the attempt is misguided and ineffective. at least someone is making an attempt to improve things. i find that discussing international events in an international forum makes more sense that complaining about local ills(in an international forum).

of course i bring a down to earth outlook. if you knew me, you'd know just how down to earth i am, even if you have been taught otherwise. i sincerely doubt if anyone here has a monopoly on the actual truth and reality of the entirety of this world. it's not necessary to personally attack others to prove one's point, even though everyone may do so from time to time....

[next to nothing]

Sorry if i come out venomous, it's not my intention. I can't see that I am personally attacking any of you either. And to be fair, it's not a personal attak rather a personal discussion. And to be more on point, i don't find a lot of the posts in this thread helpful to solve much, i find them rather polarizing rather than anything else. It's just a banging repeating of nothingness. Except the asshat-term, ihave actually never heard of that before

As i have pointed out, not in this thread but in other similar threads earlier (or was it pm?), and also connected to the "what happens in chile" question is that if you (not as in you if you know what i mean) get so hung up in the theories postered here it seems you are falling into the hands of the ones you seem to be fighting! I you are convinced the world is so fucked up you can't do anything about it, what more can you do than spread the bad news so others might feel the same? And when it somes to the point where everyone is fed with tubes and the only thing they do beside earn money is to post bad news on the internet, will the "elite" be weakened?

Instead of saying politics are shit, maybe try to engage and change (if nececary)? If something is horrendous, there is no wrong in telling people about it but it isn't wrong to try to do something about it either. And thats for the Chile-question, it IS more effective, and in many cases more helpful to actually try doing good rather than crying wolf.

PS; regarding the personal attacks it's good to see we have a common value.

[garyb]

well, i can't fight you on that.
...and i don't want to.

i might say that i'm not convinced that there is a political solution to the kinds of problems that we are talking about. the system may actually be as stacked against most human beings as it appears to be. that doesn't mean there's no solution. as i said, i agree that it's important to fix one's self and one's own neighborhood than to try to fix the world. i don't think that there's anything THAT polarizing that's been printed here. i DO think that the real polarizing force is what is described as meme allergies, which are self replicating virii of the mind. naturally, these are on all sides of most issues and the antvirus is true self awareness, something that all humans have in short supply.

as to "asshat", i get that from a planetz post. i always thought it sounded really funny. i'm laughing now(you can tell from the smilie).

personally, i find this exchange with you n-t-n, valuable. you're a sharp guy. you don't know everything, but then who does? there's nothing wrong with you keeping others on their toes.

i also don't think it's ever a bad idea to say "NO" to international mayhem, even if it's clumsy or slightly misguided, which is not a comment on the conversation here one way or the other.

[Nestor]

No NtN , I don’t avoid talking about what is going on in Chile, this is entirely your reading of my words. I am simply not interested in talking about what is going on here because it is totally irrelevant in regard to the possibility of a war between Israel and Iran, which is the topic of this thread. If you are interested in this country, I encourage you to contact Chilean people and ask what they think, they tend to be very friendly people, this could be the best way for a start. Anyway, I don’t have the time of the world to be talking about all sort of topics here, as you can appreciate.

Anyway, for you to understand what is happening in this country you would need to talk for ages with people living here and go into complicated matters like the dictatorship people have to go through about almost two decades ago. And you would need doing this for a few years because Chile is truly cryptic when it comes to political, racial issues. You will not find reliable information in any newspaper at all. It is very difficult to find information about the real process of this country through the years, as many, many nations have been here through these already 200 years of existence and history, and many mixtures of races have occurred all over Chile. It really is a headache to try to understand it from its foundation, not even its name is clear as nobody can explain where the word “Chile” comes from... There are, nevertheless, a few forbidden books by law that could give you some understanding, but I am not daring to tell you here about any of them, as this is against the law, the only thing I can tell is that two of them are called “the black book” and the other “the yellow book”.

For instance, all you could know about what happened in this very traumatic episode of Chile (the Pinochet dictatorship), it is in a forbidden gathering of thousands of documents to be released in 50 years, and with a strong reason for sure, because if those documents were to be in people’s hands today, they would cause a civil war or a similar disaster, because they give all the details of tortures and killings applied by the bloodthirsty Pinochet regime. Many sons and daughters of those tortured ones are still alive, and of course, there are also quite a few that can still tell you firsthand about what happened here exactly, as they have gone through it themselves. I have talked with some, and it was too difficult to believe! Fortunately those documents are forbidden by law, as I say, if these tortured people or their descendants were to get to know what the military did to their families, you bet, that would be catastrophic! As a detail, I can advance you that Pinochet applied Hitler’s methods of torture, and with this info you already have for some thoughts to go on in your mind for a few days!

Social divisions here are a nightmare; much hidden to the foreigner, yes, but a nightmare anyway! That is why it is so difficult to get into the country’s psychology, people is still traumatized by what happened. Look, I have been here for quite a few years already and I am just starting to understand what is going on, just starting, but I am talking about the REAL story, and not about the multinational interests… There are so many ethnicities behind it, so many forgotten and disrespected tribes like the Changos, Atacameños, Diaguitas, Andinos, Pascuenses, Picunches, Pehuenches, Mapuches, Picunches, Hiliches, Caucahues, Chonos, Hilliches, Alacalufes, Onas, Yamanas, Yaganes, and many others, even some black men that were brought as slaves and that the church considered, in their ridiculous delirium, not having a soul! I would suggest you, as a starting point to get to know how hidden everything goes in here, to find as much information as possible about PASCUA LAMA and GOLD, this matter has already several years…, but after about 5 years we got the first news... Common! It really is so, so complicated. If you can unravel what is behind this country, please, tell me!

Chile and its impact over the rest of the world, nevertheless, it is very small. Its biggest contribution to the world is that we have cooper for about 100 years at the rhythm of today extractions and lithium for quite a while too. We are just 17 million people, not even a town compared with some towns in China

This is devaluating me? He…, funny interpretation, do you think I am a coin? What is devaluating is “your impression” of me, and well, that’s your mind, I can be anything you want into your mind, its fine for me. As you can understand, I would never compromise my own freedom to “try to be” something that others need me to be, so they are happy, particularly when what I do is not bad. I think that the real problem starts when you devaluate yourself, not when others devaluate you in their minds, this has, quite frankly, not the least of importance.

Your interpretation of the links is also very particular and very personal, not coinciding with reality. If it is what you have said I find it a little bit childish. I assume that you know I am sincere with you, so you don’t need to doubt about what I am telling you, right?

I am clear about you man, you are not trying to confuse me or something like that, we are talking, that’s all it is, and don’t worry about what people think about yourself. Allow me to give you a modest point of view: be concerned about what you think of yourself because this is the important thing.

If you want to follow the latest news about Chile, well, this is the most simply issue to solve, get to Google and search, there you’ll find all the news, they are not going to be 100% reliable, but they will be there, as the rest of the news. I will not be talking about Chile, I am not interested in this, but in Iran and related.

You ask too many questions my friend! Are you a lawyer? Just kidding! Nevertheless, I think that our conversation is good, because we are very different in the way we think, but have the good will to try and actually understand each other, and this is great. Why? Because being so different, we can find into each other the richness of what people is made off, opening ourselves to new realms of understanding.

I think you are making a mountain of something very tiny when you think about the links and the news. I am following what is happening in regard with a possible war with Iran, and honestly, that is all you have to understand. I am not trying to develop any particular thought strategy or breaking the news for you, at all. It is as straight forward than that, I am following what is going on between Israel and Iran, that’s it.

If you think well, in this learning from each other, you will see that you are trying to “frame” me somehow and somewhere, because you do not understand where I come from. You have, perhaps, a mathematical way of thinking and need to establish every value before going farther. I think that you are trying to locate me into one of your known approaches to life, but perhaps my approach is different than all the others you have known so far, and that is why you are constantly asking me to tell you who I am, in relation to your understanding of the news, etc. Let say I am yellow, and you know green and red only, so you ask me: “Hey, which one are you, red or green?”, and when I tell you that I am yellow, you get confused and bring me back to what you know, green or red. You have to let me be yellow.

[dante]

Can't claim to have followed this thread in any depth, other than its about US forces gathering again. My own take on this is that the US tried Isolationism in the lead up to WWII and it failed. Mainly I believe because it had already embargoed oil supplies to Japan so at that point 'Isolationism' was a compromised ideal. Subsequent atomic action on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified on the basis of lives saved vs lives lost if not done (based on Pacific casualty figures). Given the US was the only power with these WOMD at the time, it is the only power with any history of not abusing that power when no-one else has it (what would the AXIS have done in the same position) ?

Seems to me the US is the world's cop, whether we like it or not, whether the Isolationists like it or not, so one can only wish they do the best possible job they can with it. Its a job someone has to do even if some individual choices along the way screw it up a little.

[Nestor]

Whatever it is the fake behind, they are heading matters toward a war, there is a focused will for it, as every day we see we are a step closer:

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPoliti ... ?id=261576