Algo, your examples of the success of non-violent action are both internal struggles against a basically civilised administration. I doubt the Soviets would have had much luck with such a strategy against the Germans in WWII.
And I think you should make a distinction between carpet bombing of military targets and carpet bombing population entres with the intent to cause maximum deaths. The latter is no longer western doctrine.
And also, do the motives that led the US (and the UK, Australia & others) to Afghanistan really matter if the end result was liberation from oppression ?
Modern western warfare is really extremely clean and orderly compared with any other period in history. And never before has money been invested in expensive weapons programs trying to discover how to NOT kill the enemy.
Sure there's still depleted uranium, landmines, dumb bombs etc but we're heading in the right direction.
And there's one other aspect worth thinking about: the armies of the US, UK and Australia are all comprised of volunteers. That is also an important advance and a useful brake against tyranny.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-09-27 09:39 ]</font>
Unfortunately, THE WAR IS AGAIN HERE
the right direction is the responsability direction.
the question #1 for me always is:
who is really responsable of all this?
i would like to know how would you define the
governants supported by the u.s. all over the world for the last decades....
i can remember some names:
pinochet,
papadopulos,
noriega (at the beginning)
saddam hussein (at the beginning)
mullah omar (at the beginning)
galtieri,
etc. etc......
i leave to others the duty to refer to them as
the "spread of democracy".
and then, how much does a war cost today?
who is putting the money?
who is earning that money?
who is dying for that money?
wich of theese three categories are represented by g.bush?
responsability is the only way to freedom.
and logical thinking helps too.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2002-09-27 09:51 ]</font>
the question #1 for me always is:
who is really responsable of all this?
i would like to know how would you define the
governants supported by the u.s. all over the world for the last decades....
i can remember some names:
pinochet,
papadopulos,
noriega (at the beginning)
saddam hussein (at the beginning)
mullah omar (at the beginning)
galtieri,
etc. etc......
i leave to others the duty to refer to them as
the "spread of democracy".
and then, how much does a war cost today?
who is putting the money?
who is earning that money?
who is dying for that money?
wich of theese three categories are represented by g.bush?
responsability is the only way to freedom.
and logical thinking helps too.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2002-09-27 09:51 ]</font>
A recent poll held among 5000 European and US citizens showed all have the same world vision. A revellation to me was that 50% of both groups was convinced that the US was a protagonist of his own catastrophe -sept.11.
We know what put Bush there. It's not the people.
Don't we all work at multi-nationals, owned by stock traders who don't really care. They may be excused, cos actually they have no idea about what it takes to make profit, -they only see a number going up or down on the bottom of CCN on TV.
Want to get rid of unemploiment? Want to boost economy? Create an army. Build weapons. And waste some. What a clichée. Panem et circenses.
Hey US Government, world pol!ce, do you remember when you last paid your contribution to the UN or NATO? I do not want to offend US citizens in any way -I accuse an institution of abusing it's power.
We know what put Bush there. It's not the people.
Don't we all work at multi-nationals, owned by stock traders who don't really care. They may be excused, cos actually they have no idea about what it takes to make profit, -they only see a number going up or down on the bottom of CCN on TV.
Want to get rid of unemploiment? Want to boost economy? Create an army. Build weapons. And waste some. What a clichée. Panem et circenses.
Hey US Government, world pol!ce, do you remember when you last paid your contribution to the UN or NATO? I do not want to offend US citizens in any way -I accuse an institution of abusing it's power.
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Music Manic
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We never abandoned it we turned into Christians and used democracy to educate people and create a better living.The only time we've lived without slavery is within this period.On 2002-09-27 10:09, Spirit wrote:
Democracy? Wasn't that something invented ancient Greece and then abandonned ? But I hear that the word is being recycled: it's now being used to describe corporate and financial oligarchies.
Look at most countries and peoples and you will see the Greek influence.I don't mean Greek as of modern Greece but the Greek way which Greece is not completely part of anymore.
Who gave the Jews a sense of Identity during the Roman Empire-the Greeks.
Who cultured the military force of Rome-the Greeks.
Who created the system where people could educate their kids and work for freedom.
Who's science and maths and religion is based on Greek system.Yes the arabs and the western world.
Yes it all roots from power and how it's distributed.The Normans put all this together to create the Modern world,but I now believe we are going backwards instead of forwards.
I don't want my freedom to be built on other peoples misery.
Then again who the hell am I!!
For what it's worth, wouldn't it be really convenient to have someone manufacture 'banned/illegal' weapons.....so that you have to go in and 'confiscate' the 'contraband' and 'secure' it from the rest of 'the world' to keep 'the world' safe. Mebbe I just smoke too much cheeba...
If the US really intends to push for an Iraqi conflict I'd like to put away the smoke & mirrors already.
I remember the last time we were promised evidence. Finally video tapes--halfway into the escalation of the 'conflict' in Afghanistan that our media now pretends is 'over'. The smoke & mirrors last time it was to paint a black eye on the leaders that supported Al Queda in Afghani land...If we HAVE got such evidence this time, why sit on it? Is there a reason? Is the evidence in hand yet even?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2002-09-27 12:04 ]</font>
If the US really intends to push for an Iraqi conflict I'd like to put away the smoke & mirrors already.
I remember the last time we were promised evidence. Finally video tapes--halfway into the escalation of the 'conflict' in Afghanistan that our media now pretends is 'over'. The smoke & mirrors last time it was to paint a black eye on the leaders that supported Al Queda in Afghani land...If we HAVE got such evidence this time, why sit on it? Is there a reason? Is the evidence in hand yet even?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2002-09-27 12:04 ]</font>
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algorhythm
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Spirit - I'll agree that warfare is 'cleaner' in some respects yes, but clean? nope. And "civilian" vs. "militaristic" - well, that distinction is fuzzy at best, and often breaks down. What "we" call "their" military targets they call civilians.
About violence/non-violence and war/pacifism - Yes, you are correct that both Ghandi and King were internal. But my point was that they were AGGRESIVE. They weren't defending themselves with pacifism, but using it as a tool against oppressive regimes. Of course this only works in certain cultural circumstances - For instance I don't think pacifism would have worked against the Mongols to achieve positive social change.
You are right though, sometimes self-defense is prudent. I know of very few pacifists that do not advocate self-defense. If there is a such thing as a Just War, it is defensive, and fought on home territory. I think that your example of Germany -> Russia is a good one from recent history. U.S. -> Native Americans in the 19th century is pretty potent too. Under Pres. Jackson, extermination was basically national policy here. But in both these cases, we can agree that Russia and the N.A.'s were acting in self defense. It is only in such a context that violence is acceptable for me ethically.
Your earlier comment on preemptiveness is different; in that case you are not acting in self-defense against an actual threat, but against a perceived / potential threat. I am not prepared to call any such type of action defensive, nor likely ethical.
till next time, Aussie
(BTW - did you get my last PM here last week?)
About violence/non-violence and war/pacifism - Yes, you are correct that both Ghandi and King were internal. But my point was that they were AGGRESIVE. They weren't defending themselves with pacifism, but using it as a tool against oppressive regimes. Of course this only works in certain cultural circumstances - For instance I don't think pacifism would have worked against the Mongols to achieve positive social change.
You are right though, sometimes self-defense is prudent. I know of very few pacifists that do not advocate self-defense. If there is a such thing as a Just War, it is defensive, and fought on home territory. I think that your example of Germany -> Russia is a good one from recent history. U.S. -> Native Americans in the 19th century is pretty potent too. Under Pres. Jackson, extermination was basically national policy here. But in both these cases, we can agree that Russia and the N.A.'s were acting in self defense. It is only in such a context that violence is acceptable for me ethically.
Your earlier comment on preemptiveness is different; in that case you are not acting in self-defense against an actual threat, but against a perceived / potential threat. I am not prepared to call any such type of action defensive, nor likely ethical.
till next time, Aussie
(BTW - did you get my last PM here last week?)-
lifechanger
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- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
I realized today why Dasshole and the rest are screaming:
About a week to ten days from now the War is going to start, (probably the weekend after the congress/the UN passes it's resolution.....**) and anyone who understands how we work can see it, the signs all turned up on TV Monday.
What you may ask gives me this insight?
Well I'll tell you, as it just hit me.....and I had real reservations about posting, (and If the folks here think this should go, pull away)....
Remember the image of the skies over Bagdad during Desert Storm.....well, on Monday both Fox news and CNN launched a midday show about the "War in Iraq", and PMSNBC sent their reporter to an aircraft carrier in the gulf who has started reporting daily about "drills"
As a TV producer it tells me they are positioning themselves to be on air during the night, (Bagdad Time) and already have everything in place to cover what they expect to be a very short war.
In my field you start a week or two ahead to get your viewers in tow, but you don't start a month or two because you'll lose them......
So, at the risk of seeming like a complete fool, the motions of the TV news gatherers tells me we'll be in and over before Halloween.
And the democrats will have to run against a victorious republican President who has just beaten Iraq, liberated Afghanistan and planted the seeds of democracy in Iran at the same time........
No wonder they're pissed:
They wanted GWB to go to the UN, he did.
They wanted him to come to congress, he did.
And now, before the election, he's going to go into Iraq........(and the War will bost the economy as well)
I've said it before and I will say it again:
Don't mess with this Texan, he's too many moves ahead
About a week to ten days from now the War is going to start, (probably the weekend after the congress/the UN passes it's resolution.....**) and anyone who understands how we work can see it, the signs all turned up on TV Monday.
What you may ask gives me this insight?
Well I'll tell you, as it just hit me.....and I had real reservations about posting, (and If the folks here think this should go, pull away)....
Remember the image of the skies over Bagdad during Desert Storm.....well, on Monday both Fox news and CNN launched a midday show about the "War in Iraq", and PMSNBC sent their reporter to an aircraft carrier in the gulf who has started reporting daily about "drills"
As a TV producer it tells me they are positioning themselves to be on air during the night, (Bagdad Time) and already have everything in place to cover what they expect to be a very short war.
In my field you start a week or two ahead to get your viewers in tow, but you don't start a month or two because you'll lose them......
So, at the risk of seeming like a complete fool, the motions of the TV news gatherers tells me we'll be in and over before Halloween.
And the democrats will have to run against a victorious republican President who has just beaten Iraq, liberated Afghanistan and planted the seeds of democracy in Iran at the same time........
No wonder they're pissed:
They wanted GWB to go to the UN, he did.
They wanted him to come to congress, he did.
And now, before the election, he's going to go into Iraq........(and the War will bost the economy as well)
I've said it before and I will say it again:
Don't mess with this Texan, he's too many moves ahead
-
algorhythm
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Tennessee, USA
- Contact:
actually, Daschle (not Dasshole 
) was screaming about the president politicizing the war. "Its a bad idea to release a new product until after Labor Day" - these are peoples lives we are talking about - a new 'product'? Everything you say confirms this - Bush, Dick, and Co. think war is a product to be sold to the market (the shallow minds of people in a mass consumption-culture), and the press is the advertising medium. They are setting the stage now, literally. Do you think that CNN sends in a few war photo proofs before the news, not unlike graphic arts proofs? That is just disturbing and sickening.
So if the Republicans do go to war before election time then it is pretty obviously politicized, (that is, if you needed confirmation beyond the evidence given in Daschle's speech on the senate floor this week). This is because we all know that ratings almost always go up during the start of war. The cause and justification get forgotten - the game is underway - rally for the team. Bush's ratings will go up again, people will stop wondering if this is the correct path to take, and will Hail The Flag just like after 9-11. And Americans will even thank Bush for it. Beautifully ironic, and deeply pathetic.
BTW - Requesting multilateral action from the UN with the unveiled threat of acting unilaterally if you don't like the answer of the U.N. is not quite what Powell and others meant by "going to the U.N." - I think people had something like the consent of the U.N. in the form of a resolution in mind; not a mere report of plans that are already underway. And going to Congress means more than - "Hey we are going to war!" . . .
) was screaming about the president politicizing the war. "Its a bad idea to release a new product until after Labor Day" - these are peoples lives we are talking about - a new 'product'? Everything you say confirms this - Bush, Dick, and Co. think war is a product to be sold to the market (the shallow minds of people in a mass consumption-culture), and the press is the advertising medium. They are setting the stage now, literally. Do you think that CNN sends in a few war photo proofs before the news, not unlike graphic arts proofs? That is just disturbing and sickening.So if the Republicans do go to war before election time then it is pretty obviously politicized, (that is, if you needed confirmation beyond the evidence given in Daschle's speech on the senate floor this week). This is because we all know that ratings almost always go up during the start of war. The cause and justification get forgotten - the game is underway - rally for the team. Bush's ratings will go up again, people will stop wondering if this is the correct path to take, and will Hail The Flag just like after 9-11. And Americans will even thank Bush for it. Beautifully ironic, and deeply pathetic.
BTW - Requesting multilateral action from the UN with the unveiled threat of acting unilaterally if you don't like the answer of the U.N. is not quite what Powell and others meant by "going to the U.N." - I think people had something like the consent of the U.N. in the form of a resolution in mind; not a mere report of plans that are already underway. And going to Congress means more than - "Hey we are going to war!" . . .
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lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
It seems like an attack on Iraq is coming soon.
Place your bet as to when the attack will begin.
Whoever gets closest to the date and time wins.
Attack time must be specified in Month, Day, Year, Hour, and Minute
For the hour, don't forget to specify what time zone you are referring to
My Guess:
With the new moon, on December 7, 2002, 3:00 AM Baghdad time, 0:00 UTC (ZULU).
That's also the date I was drafted into the Army, and subsequently Beruit...
Place your bet as to when the attack will begin.
Whoever gets closest to the date and time wins.
Attack time must be specified in Month, Day, Year, Hour, and Minute
For the hour, don't forget to specify what time zone you are referring to
My Guess:
With the new moon, on December 7, 2002, 3:00 AM Baghdad time, 0:00 UTC (ZULU).
That's also the date I was drafted into the Army, and subsequently Beruit...
i think that big nations doin that everyday for us in occidental rich world (i mean our "democracies" offering us stability far from where we live,in some bad bad war territories) .I'm often thinkin about that,i work for an oil engineering in my everyday life i'm a piping-designer (probably some of you will judge me badly for that job in oil industry).Sometimes i discuss with guys comin from all around the world from oil on-shore yards,the level of violence has grown cause people of these countries where oil is, are less ignorant than older generation ,they know how much energy is taken or transit from their territory(Afghanistan and maybe soon Irak is a good example).The war is today at a tribal level (for africa more than where ever else) and at the same time the war is at a planet level ).why?Our need of energy is a main reason of this violence,we have cars,electrical plants,plastics ...etc blabla .I think that The second reason is a religious and geo-politic reason,lot of cultures are now expanding and nobody want to be DELETED.I see somethin like that in Balkans,Rwanda,Tchetchenia ....I'm sure now that lot of modern local little wars or genocides can be programmed at some really high political levels (somethin similar to a chess game maybe).I wish us all to have the choice if one day we have to do somethin like a war.On 2002-09-26 19:19, Nestor wrote:
you cannot kill somebody you don’t know, you cannot kill for ideas, for economical profits, I refuse to participate on this stupid war.
And now hehe some solutions:
I propose to calculate how much can this planet produce for all our needs, (food production, energy production,technology production,waste production).
we could share food and water in equality.
For energy there is lot of future solutions,wind,solar systems these technologies are safe (i think ).
Nuclear energy could be a temporary solution to make a transition.
the energy production can be easily controlled and dispatched all around the planet by a central computerized system. we have that power.
Technology could be shared too ,if everybody can access and give a contribution humans will be on mars soon.
For all type of wastes some technologies exist and can be develloped ,maybe expencive but clean
equality could be a good base to make this planet better than she is.I really hope that one day peace will come for all human kinds,for little nations and for big nations too.
It was my description or opinion i don't know how to explain that?
don't missunderstand my words maybe my heart is too cold ,but that's my way.
is it stupid in our modern world to say PEACE PEACE PEACE ???SOLUTIONS EXIST AND THEY WILL NOT COME FROM MARS
ps:when i say at the start of the post** "we" do that everyday"** ,i mean if you have car,energetic needs,drink water,produce waste,if you have polyester clothes,plastic shoes...etc etc you are "we".
peace on planet earth and z:)
Algo- thank you for bringing the example of Gandhi! I'm presently reading his biography by Louis Fisher, and my! what an example he is! He may have acted mainly in India, but he changed the whole world, make no mistake about it, people!
I suggest everyone to read this highly inspiring book, as well as "Unveiled Mysteries" by Godfre Ray King. The last title might shed some Light as to how reality really works despite of outer appearances, for the need is great for people to rise and stop the war beast before it desecrates Life any longer.
You think that stopping war is an idealistic unreachable goal? Well, if there's no hope in you to eradicate destruction and restore Heaven on Earth, then, sadly, the hypnotic influences have done their work and won their war in your own mind! If hope vanishes from the Hearts of Men, then how are we to survive and offer a decent life to our heirs? The good news is that as long as we are alive, hope remains, and it belongs to us individually to win our inner battle against the intruder who dumps in our brain and feeling world its negativity, self-pity, judgement, criticism, anger, jealousy, fatality of war, etc. If we individually do not rid our Inner Garden from those destructive weeds, then who in the world will do it? And which seeds will we give our children? The seeds of hope or the seeds of destruction?
I see no debate in the world, because I know and I feel that the Forces of Light are taking command of this Planet, and nothing can stop them, because Light is more powerful than darkness. It takes but a sparkle to illumine darkness of thousands of years! Love always wins! It can be postponed a little, true! But it cannot loose, because the Light's Love is what blazes in the Sun and give us heat, food, shelter, clothing, etc! The Cosmic Intelligence made our planet, our bodies, our very Imoortal Self! What do you think is stronger: mankind's waywardness or the Cosmic Power of the Universal Light? If the answer is not clear, then wake up! It's all self-evident! WE ARE ENTERING, DESPITE THE SCREAMING APPEARANCES, AN ERA OF ETERNAL INVINCIBLE HARMONY! And the destruction we witness is but evil's agonizing last attempts to take hold and destroy as much as possible in its final downfall!!!
So rejoice! and be at peace.
Etienne
I suggest everyone to read this highly inspiring book, as well as "Unveiled Mysteries" by Godfre Ray King. The last title might shed some Light as to how reality really works despite of outer appearances, for the need is great for people to rise and stop the war beast before it desecrates Life any longer.
You think that stopping war is an idealistic unreachable goal? Well, if there's no hope in you to eradicate destruction and restore Heaven on Earth, then, sadly, the hypnotic influences have done their work and won their war in your own mind! If hope vanishes from the Hearts of Men, then how are we to survive and offer a decent life to our heirs? The good news is that as long as we are alive, hope remains, and it belongs to us individually to win our inner battle against the intruder who dumps in our brain and feeling world its negativity, self-pity, judgement, criticism, anger, jealousy, fatality of war, etc. If we individually do not rid our Inner Garden from those destructive weeds, then who in the world will do it? And which seeds will we give our children? The seeds of hope or the seeds of destruction?
I see no debate in the world, because I know and I feel that the Forces of Light are taking command of this Planet, and nothing can stop them, because Light is more powerful than darkness. It takes but a sparkle to illumine darkness of thousands of years! Love always wins! It can be postponed a little, true! But it cannot loose, because the Light's Love is what blazes in the Sun and give us heat, food, shelter, clothing, etc! The Cosmic Intelligence made our planet, our bodies, our very Imoortal Self! What do you think is stronger: mankind's waywardness or the Cosmic Power of the Universal Light? If the answer is not clear, then wake up! It's all self-evident! WE ARE ENTERING, DESPITE THE SCREAMING APPEARANCES, AN ERA OF ETERNAL INVINCIBLE HARMONY! And the destruction we witness is but evil's agonizing last attempts to take hold and destroy as much as possible in its final downfall!!!
So rejoice! and be at peace.
Etienne
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algorhythm
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Ghandi's autobiography comes highly recommended from algorhythm - it is really insightful to hear the development of his philosophy of action from his perspective. Not to knock other bio's of him, but it is a must-read of ahimsa literature.
I don't buy into that whole 'lightness' / 'darkness' thing though. Sound like post-christian spiritualistic new-agey stuff.
no offense eliam. as an atheist, i just can't relate. awe of the universe is an appropriate response, but i see no need to invoke the supernatural to make it seem more 'special' or 'meaningful'
~ joel
_________________
algorhythm its coming!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: algorhythm on 2002-09-27 22:45 ]</font>
I don't buy into that whole 'lightness' / 'darkness' thing though. Sound like post-christian spiritualistic new-agey stuff.
no offense eliam. as an atheist, i just can't relate. awe of the universe is an appropriate response, but i see no need to invoke the supernatural to make it seem more 'special' or 'meaningful'
~ joel
_________________
algorhythm its coming!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: algorhythm on 2002-09-27 22:45 ]</font>
and you could say that what we call civilians - in this context those in the world trade centres - were considered military targets in that they (some of them) were propagating/helping to propagate, the economic colonialism of the west onto other areas.On 2002-09-27 13:01, algorhythm wrote:
Spirit - I'll agree that warfare is 'cleaner' in some respects yes, but clean? nope. And "civilian" vs. "militaristic" - well, that distinction is fuzzy at best, and often breaks down. What "we" call "their" military targets they call civilians.
(in the same way some 'military' targets are chefs and cleaners in military complexes, some (if not many) of those who died in the WTC were not directly connected with immoral acts.
After a brief reality check I find I'm more immediately concerned about our friend Nestor...
"I feel really sick, ill… broken and extremely sad for what is going to happen..."
Nestor, don't let this depression get the better of you. You bring a lot of positivity and inspiration to this community and it's at times like these that we all need it most. Remember that the future hasn't happened yet, and the only thing that is real is NOW. Use those good qualities you have to make NOW a happy time - for yourself and those around you.
"Fear is the lack of realisation that you have no control over something that hasn't happened yet."
~ Some wise bloke with a really long name.
"I feel really sick, ill… broken and extremely sad for what is going to happen..."
Nestor, don't let this depression get the better of you. You bring a lot of positivity and inspiration to this community and it's at times like these that we all need it most. Remember that the future hasn't happened yet, and the only thing that is real is NOW. Use those good qualities you have to make NOW a happy time - for yourself and those around you.
"Fear is the lack of realisation that you have no control over something that hasn't happened yet."
~ Some wise bloke with a really long name.
I HOPE that NO ONE win...On 2002-09-27 17:03, lifechanger wrote:
Place your bet as to when the attack will begin.
If one wins this, thousant will lost THEIR LIFES... not only the live/death , but the WAY of life, the people who cares, the places who likes, the works that had, the future, the dreams ever dreamed...
Who really has the right to do that?
DJATWORK