Frank, can you give any info of the direction where NOAH is heading to?
Now it's "a bunch of VAs". As good as they are, nothing sensational though. Let there be Modular (and maybe a sampler)... would make it very attractive package!
About the topic... as being a developer myself, I know that time is running very fast on developer side. As CW is not very BIG company, we can not expect miracles in short time.
But they just should keep the wheels going on all the time. And be sure that upgrade policies will be fair...
Mixdown (export Audio) question
I think something that needs to be hammered out with more detail here is that Creamware has broadend their focus beyond just SFP and their radio technology. They have now released NOAH and the concept of NOAH requires synths to have the concept fly.
Now, one of the things that just about every review of NOAH that I read said, (conceptually paraphrasing) "if CW can prove that they are able to roll out more synths and expand the platform, people will really feel secure in accepting the bargain."
Now, given that there are a lot more plugs for SFP than for NOAH, it's a much different perspective on our side. It's quite easy to not look at what NOAH needs to survive. But I think the userbase of SFP/NOAH will explode once the SFP/NOAH convergence that has been hinted at with the release of SFP 4 hits the CW servers.
Also, once the userbase of NOAH has been secured, we'll probably see more in the way of diversified product lineups. I would imagine that the banks which have helped CW refinance have required them to emphasize NOAH as they needed to put themselves into such substantial debt just to get the thing out the door. So while I'm trying not to prosletyse (sp?) CW as the greatest thing on earth (though I wouldn't make music with anywhere as much quality for the money I put in without SFP) I think it's fair to say that given the number of staff, reserve cash to work with, and market conditions, their doing a fantastic job. Not perfect, mind you, but there are ~ 100 'companies' out there making VST(i)'s and most of them blow.
Of the one's that are doing great work, most of their products are getting hosed by piracy right out the door. Hence, companies are being bought by more secure industry giants who can take a bit of piracy better than lean and scrappy developers.
But NOAH will bring more users/interested parties/developers to the SFP platform and vice-versa. In fact, as much as I want Modular III fixed, as well as the panning and stereo linking bugs in the surround mixers fixed, I think the next big priority for CW is to open up the DP kit to more people.
Make it a little more cost-effective for other companies to hop on board. Because if they can attract an Antares, or a BBE to start making plugs for SFP/NOAH, how happy will they be to not have to worry about piracy? But they have to have the devkit served on a platter at this point as there are a lot of misperceptions that have to be rectified.
The licensing restrictions on the DP kit has been too conservative from the info that I hear, and with bankrupcy rumors still being slogged around and a history of stand-offishness re: 3rd party developers, it will take a visible shift in direction in the devkit arena if CW wants to seduce some of the bigger names.
My $.08
SAm
Now, one of the things that just about every review of NOAH that I read said, (conceptually paraphrasing) "if CW can prove that they are able to roll out more synths and expand the platform, people will really feel secure in accepting the bargain."
Now, given that there are a lot more plugs for SFP than for NOAH, it's a much different perspective on our side. It's quite easy to not look at what NOAH needs to survive. But I think the userbase of SFP/NOAH will explode once the SFP/NOAH convergence that has been hinted at with the release of SFP 4 hits the CW servers.
Also, once the userbase of NOAH has been secured, we'll probably see more in the way of diversified product lineups. I would imagine that the banks which have helped CW refinance have required them to emphasize NOAH as they needed to put themselves into such substantial debt just to get the thing out the door. So while I'm trying not to prosletyse (sp?) CW as the greatest thing on earth (though I wouldn't make music with anywhere as much quality for the money I put in without SFP) I think it's fair to say that given the number of staff, reserve cash to work with, and market conditions, their doing a fantastic job. Not perfect, mind you, but there are ~ 100 'companies' out there making VST(i)'s and most of them blow.
Of the one's that are doing great work, most of their products are getting hosed by piracy right out the door. Hence, companies are being bought by more secure industry giants who can take a bit of piracy better than lean and scrappy developers.
But NOAH will bring more users/interested parties/developers to the SFP platform and vice-versa. In fact, as much as I want Modular III fixed, as well as the panning and stereo linking bugs in the surround mixers fixed, I think the next big priority for CW is to open up the DP kit to more people.
Make it a little more cost-effective for other companies to hop on board. Because if they can attract an Antares, or a BBE to start making plugs for SFP/NOAH, how happy will they be to not have to worry about piracy? But they have to have the devkit served on a platter at this point as there are a lot of misperceptions that have to be rectified.
The licensing restrictions on the DP kit has been too conservative from the info that I hear, and with bankrupcy rumors still being slogged around and a history of stand-offishness re: 3rd party developers, it will take a visible shift in direction in the devkit arena if CW wants to seduce some of the bigger names.
My $.08
SAm
good points in your post , Sam, except those 2 (imho)On 2003-11-12 16:08, dehuszar wrote:
...Make it a little more cost-effective for other companies to hop on board.
... But they have to have the devkit served on a platter at this point as there are a lot of misperceptions that have to be rectified.
At the risk of being boring: DP is a bargain for what it can do.
If a company doesn't recogize this fact they either don't want to develope for the platform (like Access or TC using Motorola) or they are just too stupid, so better to not have them on board.
Man hours of qualified staff are extremely expensive, let alone the risk of taking business secrets out of the company, so anything that cut's down human resources like DP is more than welcome.
I never used it myself, but I probably know enough developement toolkits to judge.
Since I have the same problem with time and resources, I just spent 4k € on a system for 'regular' application developement instead of the usual Java or PHP approach.
cheers, Tom
yes, it is not an original NI product, but by some french developer - a Mac product btwSpirit wrote:
...Absynth is a unique product for NI, but CW has nothing really unique...
except of the generally brilliant visual approach I don't find much innovation in Absynth.
Even my old FZ10 sampler has multi-stage (almost endless) envelopes, looking rather humble of course... but it can modulate sample start...
it even has free-form drawn oscillators ...and it can do some additive stuff - it's from 1988 
I've played frequently with the demos, but what's so unique on Absynth in comparison to (say) Python Pro ?
Imho a faithful reproduction of analog oscillators and filters like MiniMax do count as something unique.
And I'm not trying to tell you that Mod3 has a significantly higher potential for innovative sounds than Absynth
you have a lot more experience than me in that field.But time and again I'm blown away what can come out of a patch of a dozen or so elements - never built anything really big with it, but it rules - buggy presets or not.
cheers, Tom
Just need to tell everyone I'm REALLY impressed with how robust the debate gets on Z. Spirit and others...it takes guts to fight for what you believe....to come back and argue your vision, especially when people want you to shutup.
Creamware...it takes guts also to stand up and say "well this is how it is from our position.....reality is...."
I'm in awe of the passion people have for the Creamware platform.
Creamware...it takes guts also to stand up and say "well this is how it is from our position.....reality is...."
I'm in awe of the passion people have for the Creamware platform.
I'm not trying to imply that the DP doesn't have enough VALUE, only, the perception of what you have to do in order to jump on board, and in light of what the rumor-mongering has done to the CW name of late, I think a little bit of sweetening is in order. I've never used the DP kit, so I can't truly speak objectively about what it does and doesn't do.On 2003-11-12 18:01, astroman wrote:
At the risk of being boring: DP is a bargain for what it can do.
cheers, Tom
But given the cost (where many are used to cheaper/free devkits) in conjunction with the perception that this is a niche community and not much money in sales (see various threads about "where has developer 'X' gone?"), large volume companies like Antares will likely pass.
Since more potential customers will consider SFP/NOAH if an Antares caliber comapany is on board, and since more Antares-like companies will be interested in following suit if they see a rabid user base who buys plugs (which can't really be pirated) then it's in CW's best interest to really entice developers to the platform.
Those who remember the controvery surrounding DSPDEV and the revoked DP kit, will recall (while it was a complicated affair to be sure) that there was a lot of negative sentiment about what liberties a developer really has if they are going to be able to sell plugs. Following that debacle there was a huge developer doldrum.
Now SOMETHING must have happened to the licensing agreement somewhere along the line as we've had a resurgence of developers lately, but most of them have been scrappy guys with great ideas. The more conservative companies with tight margins and a lot of debts are not going to risk it if they aren't damn sure the deal is sweet for them.
Personally, if I had the money I'd buy a DP kit just in case I wanted to get all Mad Professor with my tunes. But I'm not a company whose established line of plugs has a reputation and an already successful (comparitively) business selling VST/TDM plugs.
You can call potential developers stupid for not seeing the beauty in the DP kit, but in today's market no prudent businessman/woman is going to risk the amount of money required to port and support their plugs using SFP/NOAH unless they see it as a slam dunk for potential sales. In fact I'm willing to bet that most developers would really like to hop on board (pun intended) as the tools and toys are so kewl and fun to play with. Were it not for the fact that it doesn't APPEAR to be a sound business move at this point in time I think a lot of the big names which signed on to do plugs in the very beginning of Pulsar history would have done so (what ever became of that Quantum reverb???). SPL made the Sonic Maximizer and Attack, Sonic Timeworks did a few plugs... but other than a few updates to make the plugs XTC and SFP compatible what has been developed by the big-name companies that were very excited from the get go? Nothing really. And the only WHY I can come up with is what I've proposed.
I've not heard of anyone, potential customer or developer, denying that the platform is fantastic (although Angus from fxpansion did say he wasn't too keen on DP, and now he's not developing for SFP no more) and fun to work with, but no one seems confident that it will survive long enough to make it a worthwhile investment.
And as you mentioned in addition to the cost of the kit and license, you have to factor in the cost of training people to use the platform and adapt their code. That's a lot of money no matter how you slice it.
Feel free to disagree, of course.
Now, having said all that, it seems that CW is already doing something to this effect so we can only wait and see what they have in store. Though (nudge, nudge) I'm always open to someone from CWHQ spilling the beans early.
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2003-11-12 20:53 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2003-11-12 20:58 ]</font>
yes indeed, the fact of appreciating the DP kit or not is first of all a decision if one expects enough market potential to justfy any investments be it money or training.On 2003-11-12 20:36, dehuszar wrote:
...You can call them stupid for not seeing the value of the DP kit, but in today's market no prudent businessman/woman is going to risk the amount of money required to port and support their plugs using SFP/NOAH unless they see it as a slam dunk for potential sales. In fact I'm willing to bet that most developers would really like to hop on board (pun intended) were it not for the fact that it doesn't APPEAR to be a sound business move at this point in time.
And remember that in addition to the cost of the kit and license, you have to factor in the cost of training people to use the platform and adapt their code. That's a lot of money no matter how you slice it...
That's probably more restricting than the costs of the licence itself (at least as far as I know prices, which are fairly old meanwhile)
cheers, Tom
surely this is as much buzz as in the early cubase or logic(or especially pro tools) forums.certainly this userbase is enegetic and in love enough to lift the platform to industry acceptance if cw can continue to bring the energy and results that they have shown up 'till now. we don't even need that ballmer guy........
Yes, but it's buzz and energetic debate amongst the usual suspects for the most part. And I'm near-broke right now, and can't drop fortunes on new plugs, so I'm hardly a vibrant voice to excite potential software houses.
I would love to get some input from kimgr, as I think he's the only representative of a major CW developer (from a big independant developer I mean to say) who is active on the Z. Any other developers' comments would be educational as well. Bowen? Hummel? Any potentials who are riding the fence?
Sam
I would love to get some input from kimgr, as I think he's the only representative of a major CW developer (from a big independant developer I mean to say) who is active on the Z. Any other developers' comments would be educational as well. Bowen? Hummel? Any potentials who are riding the fence?
Sam
I've been more than rough towards CW but I've reread some threads and I'll try to be kinder !
See, when you find some time to talk a little, you're at last a small company and not a big one which doesn't give a fuck, doesn't listen ... etc
Now it's clear you're very busy and despite you're aware of things to be done or fixed, it just takes too much time unfortunately.
When I see what can be run on my Pulsar II, I don't imagine the number of Sharcs to run a Rhino, an Xphraze ... those are just not makeable for the average user.
So I don't expect something massive in terms of number of features or voices.
I realistically expect good surprises in old jars : for instance Prodissey, SparC, Uberplastic, Saturn are basically " another VAs " but with some extra smart concepts they can go further, way further and are a source of surprises and unique sounds.
Flexor has proved though that you can develop really stunning and amazing products.
I'll buy the Prodissey, the Mini and Pro One ... well I don't expect major surprises just excellent tools ... will try the demos tho.
Less controls than VSTi's but deep underneath construction that allow in fact to create a very large array of sounds with light tweaks.
I don't know what's to be released but I'd urgently stop the cloning factory immediately and start making unique synths : only available on CW, unique sounds, you don't have a card ? oh that's really bad for you !
Because now that Arturia lives on their TAE, they'll surely make more clones, Gmedia and Ohmforce too.
The sound quality of CW is far superior ? I don't know ... judging by the mp3's
If I enter the skin of a VSTi user only : I've bought my decent soundcard X, I can try any demos, plenty of various products and you know what : the sound is in progress over the years !
It's not the nirvana but good enough for what I do, I'am cheating : many people are really happy with their VSTi's and many drop their hardware ( well, they say so )
And there's CW : change your card or buy a new one to have access to less polyphony and functionality, features ...
Now in late 2003 it's rather daring, you have just a bunch of mostly poor mp3's, some well known or not guys who say it rocks : you have to be really trusty !
Not too mention that it's not a soundblaster, you'll have to do some " read the fucking manual " chores, again and again !
Not too mention, it doesn't seem very alive, one plug now and then, some third parties on CW site with not too much activity, it seems aging and asleep ...
Hey I'am still on VSTi only user mode !
Back to my skin now !!
I know what sounds can be made with CW based devices : it's an addiction !! it should be reflected in the mp3 : make VBR as high quality as possible, record as many various presets as possible ( 5 - 10 seconds each ; quick fades ) NORMALIZE !!!!!!!!!!!! ( sorry for shouting ) sort the files by pads, leads ... etc
But make a lot of them !
People with no CW cards will " wow !! ", keep the mp3's, relisten, compare and after some time : " that's it, I need a CW card, I don't care about the reduced polyphony ... etc "
Now the site : make small PDFs of presentations, GUI's, some SFP projects, the vital details, the " philosophy ", to entice ...
A PDF of presentation for all the synths, one for all the FX ... etc
One for the modular, a shortened version, all the modules and short explanations.
If potential new users are interested, feel free for them to download the whole lot of manuals later.
I could go on but in short if you seriously rebuild the site in depth, many more people would have a CW bookmark, in case, for later ...
Making good products is not enough, if it's not your thing to promote, hire some people, in the long run, it will pay I think.
I'am glad you're considering releasing a new DP and working with third parties more closely.
I even proposed DP for the price of a Powerpulsar, it's radical but it would put a hell of focus on CW !!
Until now it's Reaktor Session for the majority and Reaktor for the minority, if you change the balance many exciting things may occur but not immediately.
Really promote DP and give infos !!
I " dream " of an attrative CW site : enter the CW world, CW creations, big names
third parties, individuals, cooperations, competition, development ...
From what I read, anyway you won't turn into a synth guru or FX master overnight and in fact most will abandon I think by lack of time or conclusive results but a few number will emerge ...
You have years ahead of development under your belt and you can keep for you the more " edgy " atoms, so you don't have too much to fear ; CW will sell more boards, a real dynamic could be engaged !!
Now CW, don't be shy and do what's necessary to conquer the world !
See, when you find some time to talk a little, you're at last a small company and not a big one which doesn't give a fuck, doesn't listen ... etc
Now it's clear you're very busy and despite you're aware of things to be done or fixed, it just takes too much time unfortunately.
When I see what can be run on my Pulsar II, I don't imagine the number of Sharcs to run a Rhino, an Xphraze ... those are just not makeable for the average user.
So I don't expect something massive in terms of number of features or voices.
I realistically expect good surprises in old jars : for instance Prodissey, SparC, Uberplastic, Saturn are basically " another VAs " but with some extra smart concepts they can go further, way further and are a source of surprises and unique sounds.
Flexor has proved though that you can develop really stunning and amazing products.
I'll buy the Prodissey, the Mini and Pro One ... well I don't expect major surprises just excellent tools ... will try the demos tho.
Less controls than VSTi's but deep underneath construction that allow in fact to create a very large array of sounds with light tweaks.
I don't know what's to be released but I'd urgently stop the cloning factory immediately and start making unique synths : only available on CW, unique sounds, you don't have a card ? oh that's really bad for you !
Because now that Arturia lives on their TAE, they'll surely make more clones, Gmedia and Ohmforce too.
The sound quality of CW is far superior ? I don't know ... judging by the mp3's
If I enter the skin of a VSTi user only : I've bought my decent soundcard X, I can try any demos, plenty of various products and you know what : the sound is in progress over the years !
It's not the nirvana but good enough for what I do, I'am cheating : many people are really happy with their VSTi's and many drop their hardware ( well, they say so )
And there's CW : change your card or buy a new one to have access to less polyphony and functionality, features ...
Now in late 2003 it's rather daring, you have just a bunch of mostly poor mp3's, some well known or not guys who say it rocks : you have to be really trusty !
Not too mention that it's not a soundblaster, you'll have to do some " read the fucking manual " chores, again and again !
Not too mention, it doesn't seem very alive, one plug now and then, some third parties on CW site with not too much activity, it seems aging and asleep ...
Hey I'am still on VSTi only user mode !
Back to my skin now !!
I know what sounds can be made with CW based devices : it's an addiction !! it should be reflected in the mp3 : make VBR as high quality as possible, record as many various presets as possible ( 5 - 10 seconds each ; quick fades ) NORMALIZE !!!!!!!!!!!! ( sorry for shouting ) sort the files by pads, leads ... etc
But make a lot of them !
People with no CW cards will " wow !! ", keep the mp3's, relisten, compare and after some time : " that's it, I need a CW card, I don't care about the reduced polyphony ... etc "
Now the site : make small PDFs of presentations, GUI's, some SFP projects, the vital details, the " philosophy ", to entice ...
A PDF of presentation for all the synths, one for all the FX ... etc
One for the modular, a shortened version, all the modules and short explanations.
If potential new users are interested, feel free for them to download the whole lot of manuals later.
I could go on but in short if you seriously rebuild the site in depth, many more people would have a CW bookmark, in case, for later ...
Making good products is not enough, if it's not your thing to promote, hire some people, in the long run, it will pay I think.
I'am glad you're considering releasing a new DP and working with third parties more closely.
I even proposed DP for the price of a Powerpulsar, it's radical but it would put a hell of focus on CW !!
Until now it's Reaktor Session for the majority and Reaktor for the minority, if you change the balance many exciting things may occur but not immediately.
Really promote DP and give infos !!
I " dream " of an attrative CW site : enter the CW world, CW creations, big names
third parties, individuals, cooperations, competition, development ...
From what I read, anyway you won't turn into a synth guru or FX master overnight and in fact most will abandon I think by lack of time or conclusive results but a few number will emerge ...
You have years ahead of development under your belt and you can keep for you the more " edgy " atoms, so you don't have too much to fear ; CW will sell more boards, a real dynamic could be engaged !!
Now CW, don't be shy and do what's necessary to conquer the world !
Ok, something about the VA synths that creamware has. To a *new* user without a lot of gear these are simply going to be incredible. Period. To an 'experienced user' of the originals and/or someone with enough VA/real analogue on hand (such as myself) they're slightly redundant (and yet I own both Minimax & ProOne!)
HOWEVER, Steinberg didn't develop X-Phraze or D-Cota or any of 'their' other new devices which seem so cool. These are ALL developed by 3rd party companies that have attracted the eye of Steinberg. Steinberg offers what itself? Basic sampling (albeit with a better gui than the STS series), basic synthesis (model-A etc) and its only over time with incoming profit (and ESPECIALLY since Pinnacle purchased them obviously increasing their cash/loan pool) that 'Steinberg' has increased the visibility of 'their' vsti offerings.
I DEFINATELY WANT INNOVATIVE SYNTHESIS for SFP & Noah, but remember again that for a long time Steinberg focused on their core product and others developed vst/vsti's, much as Creamware currently is focusing on Noah & SFP 4.0 (and who knows what else?) Eventually I do hope that Creamware is able to release innovative devices in their own right and/or subcontract work out to developers up to the task, but for now we DO have some innovative developers on board whose quality and innovation is getting higher & higher (FleXor, Solaris, SparC etc) compared to what was available (and mostly given away) even 2 years ago. We also have new players entering the community releasing their own quality devices (D-Mute, Space-F) and hopefully time will tell that they are also capable of innovating. Much like FM7 & Absynth were developed by 3rd parties (unlike all the other reaktor-based cookie cutter NI stuff), D-Cota & X-Phraze were developed by 3rd parties, Creamware also has a growing 3rd party developer base. All is not lost, perhaps Creamware will turn their eye to developing new synthesis solutions & better samplers but its not our only option.
HOWEVER, Steinberg didn't develop X-Phraze or D-Cota or any of 'their' other new devices which seem so cool. These are ALL developed by 3rd party companies that have attracted the eye of Steinberg. Steinberg offers what itself? Basic sampling (albeit with a better gui than the STS series), basic synthesis (model-A etc) and its only over time with incoming profit (and ESPECIALLY since Pinnacle purchased them obviously increasing their cash/loan pool) that 'Steinberg' has increased the visibility of 'their' vsti offerings.
I DEFINATELY WANT INNOVATIVE SYNTHESIS for SFP & Noah, but remember again that for a long time Steinberg focused on their core product and others developed vst/vsti's, much as Creamware currently is focusing on Noah & SFP 4.0 (and who knows what else?) Eventually I do hope that Creamware is able to release innovative devices in their own right and/or subcontract work out to developers up to the task, but for now we DO have some innovative developers on board whose quality and innovation is getting higher & higher (FleXor, Solaris, SparC etc) compared to what was available (and mostly given away) even 2 years ago. We also have new players entering the community releasing their own quality devices (D-Mute, Space-F) and hopefully time will tell that they are also capable of innovating. Much like FM7 & Absynth were developed by 3rd parties (unlike all the other reaktor-based cookie cutter NI stuff), D-Cota & X-Phraze were developed by 3rd parties, Creamware also has a growing 3rd party developer base. All is not lost, perhaps Creamware will turn their eye to developing new synthesis solutions & better samplers but its not our only option.
so, i understood that mixdown is not available with sfp or xtc mode. an idea could be that creamware creates a kind of xtc plug ins that in the playback work with dsp without using cpu and while mixing down are using cpu. i think that is not completely impossible if they create 2 kind of every of their plugins one for dsp and one for cpu perfectly identical and a program that exports all the various settings of the plugins of the song from the one that is on dsp to the other that works on cpu only for the mixdown!! i think that this is a good idea that is not too difficult to make work, if they make something like that, then they can really say that their plugins work really like vst plugins... it will be not the same but the result will be the same!
Creamware should cut the card costs.
Simple solution to expand their user base.
Then they will sell more software since people have the power to run it all.
The tools are so amazing the only reason not to buy is the limited power you get with a Pulsar II.
Luna $200USD
Pulsar $400USD
PowerPulsar $1000USD
Scope SRB $700
Creamware could grab the entry level soundcard market from M Audio.
Simple solution to expand their user base.
Then they will sell more software since people have the power to run it all.
The tools are so amazing the only reason not to buy is the limited power you get with a Pulsar II.
Luna $200USD
Pulsar $400USD
PowerPulsar $1000USD
Scope SRB $700
Creamware could grab the entry level soundcard market from M Audio.
those WOULD be nice prices but here's some comparison.pro tools hd $20-30,000 to start with,euphonics channel strip(uses sharcs)$5-10,000..........
i would HATE to sacrifice quality to save a few hundred bucks,when i consider that the same people who balk at what is really a cheap package(for what it is)then spend $2-3000 on a korg trident or minimoog or a vs2480....
i would HATE to sacrifice quality to save a few hundred bucks,when i consider that the same people who balk at what is really a cheap package(for what it is)then spend $2-3000 on a korg trident or minimoog or a vs2480....
I think CW's pricing is excellent value, always has been, going back to TripleDat. Let's leave them a little profit margin to pay some of the best audio programmers in the business. This is not an entry level product - well maybe Luna is but that's more of an introduction to SFP, no one stays at 3DSP do they?Creamware should cut the card costs.
Luna $200USD
Pulsar $400USD
PowerPulsar $1000USD
Scope SRB $700
Creamware could grab the entry level soundcard market from M Audio.
You can always get bargains on Ebay.
/dave
yeah I was being unrealistic but it would be cool if Creamware could get the platform out there then make the money off the plugins that everyone will be clambering to get. Since they already have the kick arse hardware.
Maybe at those prices reduce the software package so with the Pulsar II "lite" you only get synth pack 1 or 2. Or maybe no synths at all, and only one effects package.
I dunno really. Just thinking.
Maybe at those prices reduce the software package so with the Pulsar II "lite" you only get synth pack 1 or 2. Or maybe no synths at all, and only one effects package.
I dunno really. Just thinking.