very interesting video to see of live performance
http://www.billbruford.com/
Keyboardists and drumer live, superb! (I think)
this is really good too
Bill Bruford's Earthworks - Footloose In NYC (DVD)
Simple: DON'T FORGET real performance, there is nothing like
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Nestor
- Posts: 6683
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
That turned to be an interesting conversation guys…
Well, dear Hubird, me too, detest the mediocrity of being extremely skilled but cold. This is a well known problem in Jazz, particularly in bebop jazz stile. There are far too many empty virtuous people whose priority is the speed and not the musicality. To get speed is relatively easy, but means nothing by itself. There are literally thousands of jazz musicians transmitting little because of this, and music instead of being a REAL emotional experience, becomes a sport, a competition in which the fastest, is the best…
The video I posted myself, it is not at all into this sort of non-heart way of playing… they play relaxed and are not at all showing up, or something like that.
That is why even if jazz music can apparently sound “equal” from one group to another, there is a radical, vital difference, and this is expression. Thelorious Monk for instance, being a man with no much musical knowledge, no distress in his fingers, constantly mistaking notes, could nevertheless transmit an enormous amount of feelings, cos he was playing from his heart.
For me it is obvious that those guys in the little move up here, are playing sincerely.
I do not advertise on empty virtuosity, I don’t believe on it, but I like, very, very much, when someone is able to do anything with his own instrument and at the same time, be mature enough to chose expression instead of speed.
I think that music is “ART” in the innermost sense of the word, and can’t mix it with sport, they are different things…
As Ken points out, real performance and virtuosity in its right place, its great, even fantastic! Of course it is! To be able to do anything you like with your instrument is a joy you cannot deny.
There are, nevertheless, some exceptions to the rules… you have for instance Johnny McLaughlin, the guitarist of ex Mahavishnu, Jaco Pastorious bassist of Whether Report, Billy Cobham drummer of many Jazz Rock groups around the world, Al Dimeola guitarist of Return to Forever, John Coltrane and many other great musicians who were extremely virtuous, and at the same time sensible in they way they used their ability.
Something is true: You can easily become a virtuous, all you have to do is repeating like a machine scales of all sorts till you get them into the mechanical ness of your body… that’s it. Something completely different is to be able to transmit “deep feelings” to others… this is a matter of “being” oneself deeper through sensibility and experience, and of course, HONESTY!!!
For me it is very simple: people that want to impress with their performance, are musically immature; those playing from their heart and eventually using their ability to get into a virtuous ground cos they feel it, and are actually transmitting a real emotion, are into art.
This happens too into hard rock musicians… they can be so tiresome… the typical guitarist which is unable to turn his amp a bit down, so the singer can be heard, the drummer need not to kill himself hitting hard, and the rest of the band to be able to hear each other…
Those solos in real performance which take forever, while the player is convinced he’s doing great, are actually enjoying those with a sincere ear… That is why there are quite a few extremely skilled musicians that had never been accepted into bands, cos they take far too much place becoming unbearable.
If you Z friends, are referring to this, I’m completely with you, but still it is simple to understand that there is nothing to substitute real performance, particularly when those musicians are playing from their bones and the capacity to manage their instruments is limitless.
Well, dear Hubird, me too, detest the mediocrity of being extremely skilled but cold. This is a well known problem in Jazz, particularly in bebop jazz stile. There are far too many empty virtuous people whose priority is the speed and not the musicality. To get speed is relatively easy, but means nothing by itself. There are literally thousands of jazz musicians transmitting little because of this, and music instead of being a REAL emotional experience, becomes a sport, a competition in which the fastest, is the best…
The video I posted myself, it is not at all into this sort of non-heart way of playing… they play relaxed and are not at all showing up, or something like that.
That is why even if jazz music can apparently sound “equal” from one group to another, there is a radical, vital difference, and this is expression. Thelorious Monk for instance, being a man with no much musical knowledge, no distress in his fingers, constantly mistaking notes, could nevertheless transmit an enormous amount of feelings, cos he was playing from his heart.
For me it is obvious that those guys in the little move up here, are playing sincerely.
I do not advertise on empty virtuosity, I don’t believe on it, but I like, very, very much, when someone is able to do anything with his own instrument and at the same time, be mature enough to chose expression instead of speed.
I think that music is “ART” in the innermost sense of the word, and can’t mix it with sport, they are different things…
As Ken points out, real performance and virtuosity in its right place, its great, even fantastic! Of course it is! To be able to do anything you like with your instrument is a joy you cannot deny.
There are, nevertheless, some exceptions to the rules… you have for instance Johnny McLaughlin, the guitarist of ex Mahavishnu, Jaco Pastorious bassist of Whether Report, Billy Cobham drummer of many Jazz Rock groups around the world, Al Dimeola guitarist of Return to Forever, John Coltrane and many other great musicians who were extremely virtuous, and at the same time sensible in they way they used their ability.
Something is true: You can easily become a virtuous, all you have to do is repeating like a machine scales of all sorts till you get them into the mechanical ness of your body… that’s it. Something completely different is to be able to transmit “deep feelings” to others… this is a matter of “being” oneself deeper through sensibility and experience, and of course, HONESTY!!!
For me it is very simple: people that want to impress with their performance, are musically immature; those playing from their heart and eventually using their ability to get into a virtuous ground cos they feel it, and are actually transmitting a real emotion, are into art.
This happens too into hard rock musicians… they can be so tiresome… the typical guitarist which is unable to turn his amp a bit down, so the singer can be heard, the drummer need not to kill himself hitting hard, and the rest of the band to be able to hear each other…
Those solos in real performance which take forever, while the player is convinced he’s doing great, are actually enjoying those with a sincere ear… That is why there are quite a few extremely skilled musicians that had never been accepted into bands, cos they take far too much place becoming unbearable.
If you Z friends, are referring to this, I’m completely with you, but still it is simple to understand that there is nothing to substitute real performance, particularly when those musicians are playing from their bones and the capacity to manage their instruments is limitless.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
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hubird
Ok, Nestor, I knew your musical heart is in the right place 
I know all the musicions you name, as I have the age for that, and including Billy Cobham all of them are guys who earned their medallons, tho I don't like so much the music of some of them.
Now I remember, I made a dancelike song years ago with a sample I took from the McLaughlin/Carlos Santana lp Love Devine.
I'll post it some day, but I need a DAT recorder to track it down, mine is broken.
Anyway, yet this comments:
you say: but still it is simple to understand that there is nothing to substitute real performance.
Hard to believe for you, but I hate it when I go to a party of whatever and I'm forced to listen to life music.
It's always boring to me, pop or rock.
Jazz is another story, you won't meet it in the clubs so often.
I can enjoy jazz, but only if it's really good, which is mostly not unless the band is top.
If the band is top, there's a great chance they are educated pure technicions and/or are oriented to fusion rock
So, I prefer a dj, because then I'm sure I myself have a party instead of the musicions
Even when I see a electronic 'band' on a dance party I feel suspicious: will it sound as if a dj is working, or are they endless going to freak out in structureless improvisations.
Another thing is that after 50 years we've seen the typical 'band' concept, every possible musical thing is said already, at least to me.
Imagine, every synthesiser on the world has the same preset, you can only change the basic param's like filter or release time and add some fx, how would you feel with that?
Replace the word synthesiser with guitar, and you see why I have more than enough of pop rock bands.
I've seen already thousend times what you can get with it, so I' feel really happy in the world of electronic music.
And no scales exersising... which I've done for some years!
All from my personal point of view, cheerz
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-12-04 22:08 ]</font>
I know all the musicions you name, as I have the age for that, and including Billy Cobham all of them are guys who earned their medallons, tho I don't like so much the music of some of them.
Now I remember, I made a dancelike song years ago with a sample I took from the McLaughlin/Carlos Santana lp Love Devine.
I'll post it some day, but I need a DAT recorder to track it down, mine is broken.
Anyway, yet this comments:
you say: but still it is simple to understand that there is nothing to substitute real performance.
Hard to believe for you, but I hate it when I go to a party of whatever and I'm forced to listen to life music.
It's always boring to me, pop or rock.
Jazz is another story, you won't meet it in the clubs so often.
I can enjoy jazz, but only if it's really good, which is mostly not unless the band is top.
If the band is top, there's a great chance they are educated pure technicions and/or are oriented to fusion rock
So, I prefer a dj, because then I'm sure I myself have a party instead of the musicions
Even when I see a electronic 'band' on a dance party I feel suspicious: will it sound as if a dj is working, or are they endless going to freak out in structureless improvisations.
Another thing is that after 50 years we've seen the typical 'band' concept, every possible musical thing is said already, at least to me.
Imagine, every synthesiser on the world has the same preset, you can only change the basic param's like filter or release time and add some fx, how would you feel with that?
Replace the word synthesiser with guitar, and you see why I have more than enough of pop rock bands.
I've seen already thousend times what you can get with it, so I' feel really happy in the world of electronic music.
And no scales exersising... which I've done for some years!
All from my personal point of view, cheerz
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-12-04 22:08 ]</font>
You said it Nestor 
And a kid named Tony Royster Jr check out his talent (I wish he was my drummer:D). My friend has a video with him when he was just a kid around 12-15 years old and he was funky as hell, not only playng endless solos, but realy grooving troug a lot of beats with small variations it might be on internet somewhere
here are some clips (not that great but an impression) http://www.tonyroysterjr.com/sounds.htm
If U take a good look at the drumsolo played at woodstock by Michael Shrieve i think his name was. U might sence some dangerous emotions in the drumsolo section wich I personaly think it's the best part of the track."I think that music is “ART” in the innermost sense of the word, and can’t mix it with sport, they are different things"
"For me it is very simple: people that want to impress with their performance, are musically immature; those playing from their heart and eventually using their ability to get into a virtuous ground cos they feel it, and are actually transmitting a real emotion, are into art."
And a kid named Tony Royster Jr check out his talent (I wish he was my drummer:D). My friend has a video with him when he was just a kid around 12-15 years old and he was funky as hell, not only playng endless solos, but realy grooving troug a lot of beats with small variations it might be on internet somewhere
here are some clips (not that great but an impression) http://www.tonyroysterjr.com/sounds.htm
Why am I obsessed by this thing called music?
in fact one of the most lasting impressions from 'life' music for me was a drummer
There was this free Jazz combo Yosuke Yamashita Trio playing in a very small club.
They started very, very slow with sizzling and brizzling and caressing all metal parts of the drum set with only slow increase of tension - the usual esotheric approach one might expect.
But suddenly (someone must have given an invisible sign) that dude on the drums punished the hell out of the set, changing within a tenth of a second to a whirlwind with an output of a thunderstorm.
I sat only a couple of meters from the drums and it almost blew my brain away - yet it was played with extreme precision.
I can't remember anything that violent from any rock concert I've seen
cheers, Tom
There was this free Jazz combo Yosuke Yamashita Trio playing in a very small club.
They started very, very slow with sizzling and brizzling and caressing all metal parts of the drum set with only slow increase of tension - the usual esotheric approach one might expect.
But suddenly (someone must have given an invisible sign) that dude on the drums punished the hell out of the set, changing within a tenth of a second to a whirlwind with an output of a thunderstorm.
I sat only a couple of meters from the drums and it almost blew my brain away - yet it was played with extreme precision.
I can't remember anything that violent from any rock concert I've seen
cheers, Tom
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Nestor
- Posts: 6683
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
He's sooooo gooood, what a drumer man... It is quite differnet from the rest. Hi's always behind the "tempo" and from there moves... Remember the times of Yes.On 2003-12-03 17:01, zezappa wrote:
very interesting video to see of live performance
http://www.billbruford.com/
Keyboardists and drumer live, superb! (I think)
this is really good too
Bill Bruford's Earthworks - Footloose In NYC (DVD)
Great!*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
-
hubird
DAMN!!
you won't believe this: streaming that video of Bill Bruford, without looking to it yet, I hear the announcement, not in inglish but in my own language, dutch.
Second, I recognise the voice, it's an old friend of mine from the music and theatre scene of my town, ha!
Than i realised -and saw in the video- that this recording has taken place in Nijmegen, 200 meters from my place
It was at the Music Meeting Festival, I guess the edition of last october .
It's a quality festival with many big names and 'hot' new stuff, it has some status in the world, not as much as f.i. the Northsae Jazz Festival, but it's well know in the scene, specially with musicions and bands all over the world
This is the first time since years that I didn't go to it...
Hehe, now that this concert took place around the corner here, you think I'm gonne say that I find this Brufort video super?
Yes, that's what I say here, it IS super, it's hell of super, and like Nestor said, this is totally different from the other videos.
This is improvising music at the top of the world, I loved every note of it.
And no metal shop around Brufort, you saw that?
...considering my contra voice contribution to this thread, I like this video coincidence of having-got-him-next-door very much, this must be positive symbolic, thank you Bill hehe 
After all, a happy amen we have
coz we all agree this is either top or you don't care about this type of music which is no harm, and I even thank Bill Brufort!
I just would like to suggest Bill to use a clicktrack, coz it wasn't really tight
ha, joking
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-12-05 22:22 ]</font>
you won't believe this: streaming that video of Bill Bruford, without looking to it yet, I hear the announcement, not in inglish but in my own language, dutch.
Second, I recognise the voice, it's an old friend of mine from the music and theatre scene of my town, ha!
Than i realised -and saw in the video- that this recording has taken place in Nijmegen, 200 meters from my place
It was at the Music Meeting Festival, I guess the edition of last october .
It's a quality festival with many big names and 'hot' new stuff, it has some status in the world, not as much as f.i. the Northsae Jazz Festival, but it's well know in the scene, specially with musicions and bands all over the world
This is the first time since years that I didn't go to it...
Hehe, now that this concert took place around the corner here, you think I'm gonne say that I find this Brufort video super?
Yes, that's what I say here, it IS super, it's hell of super, and like Nestor said, this is totally different from the other videos.
This is improvising music at the top of the world, I loved every note of it.
And no metal shop around Brufort, you saw that?
ehhhit's just that I don't see why exactly these video's are an argument for relevant life performancing
...considering my contra voice contribution to this thread, I like this video coincidence of having-got-him-next-door very much, this must be positive symbolic, thank you Bill hehe After all, a happy amen we have
coz we all agree this is either top or you don't care about this type of music which is no harm, and I even thank Bill Brufort!I just would like to suggest Bill to use a clicktrack, coz it wasn't really tight
ha, joking
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-12-05 22:22 ]</font>
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hubird
