Anybody into 3D modeling?

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:35 pm

I'm just curious about this incredible real. Do you know or work with these kind of special programs for 3D modeling?

I would like to know a bit about it, thanks.

[ This Message was edited by: nestor on 2003-12-18 02:37 ]

ChrisWerner · Post by **ChrisWerner** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:50 am

Hi Nestor,
yes I´ve worked with 3D modeling few years ago, because I was curious about this world too.
This is really a world on its own you can compare it with the SFP universe.
3D modeling is very time and CPU Power consumating but brings out stunning results.
An example:
<img src="http://www.strafe.com/2001/Pod1.jpg"></img>
Do you remember it?

At the moment a french firm is working on 3D characters or better said Avatars to exchange the moderators on TV, for the news for example. Can you believe that we would hear our news from a 3D model?
Always the same expressionless face but somebody else can just type or copy in the news from the text to the moderator program, really cheap solution, isn´t it.

Well how are those characters made?
You can build a dummy head out of plaster,
take a photo of it or best you can put this head into a 3D scanner. Then the surfaces is divided into many polygons to have a wireframe. Like this:
<a href="http://webreference.com/3d/lesson61/"> click </a>

Then the points of every edge of a polygone must be transfered to the computer, click click click, that´s really time consumating.
Once the wireframe is transfered you can start with the shading of the wireframe.
In fact you start to paint the skin of the head. After all this you can begin to animate the eyes, mouth, muscels etc. you try to bring life to your model.
Today they use motion captering on their 3D models, <a href="http://hawaii.aist-nara.ac.jp/equipment/vicon_e.html"> click </a>

Anyway I don´t know where to start and where to end, as I said this is a big world on their own. If you have any questions, just ask!

Here are some additional interesting links:

<a href="http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~pollefey/tutorial/"> 3D from 2D images </a>

<a href="http://www.caligari.com/"> Truespace, a program I used </a>

<a href="http://www.curiouslabs.com/"> Poser, a amazing program for virtual characters including animation, really excellent </a>

<a href="http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2551234521#"> Bryce 5 from Corel, watch the stream, very good made </a>

Have fun!

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2003-12-18 02:56 ]

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:39 am

Hi, I worked with 3D modeling. It takes a lot of time both to create and initially to learn the program, also the best programs are very expensive. Eovia makes a good affordable 3D program called Carrara, but I wouldn't learn that if you are looking to get a job in 3D because it isn't widely used.

I have often thought animation is a great alternative to playing live for electronic musicians. I would love to see animators and musicians form multimedia bands. Normally the music composer is hired to add another dimension to the visual but it doesn't have to be this way. I would love to see software which is a hybrid of animation and music software. For instance we should be able to trigger samples through visual events. Software engineers have a very narrow focus and don't see the possibilities. Too many movies accent the star and the action. Even with the Toy Story type movie the music is not the primary focus. They used Randy Newman for god's sake. Can music be worse than this? The highest tech animation and the lowest tech music. We are relegated to second class citizens. It's not that people don't care about music because we know they buy or file swap a lot of it.

There is immense emphasis on 3D these days because it is more sexy than 2D animation. I would consider 2D computer animation if you want to make your own original mark. It's very primal like cave paintings. Too bad that they don't make many 2D computer animation programs. Director is one program I have used for this but because it doesn't use the parent child method for linking objects and creating hinges, it is not a really great tool for animation, yet another example of stupidity in software engineering.

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:09 am

http://www.broadstreetstudios.com/Desig ... alDemo.htm
(note: requires quicktime 5.x+)

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:32 pm

Valis, You did this? Nice work. Did the painter rotoscoping take long?

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:38 pm

Thank you guys for your replys.

I'm glad to find out some of you have worked with it. I would like to includ it in my learning list, for multimedia apps. But as I can see, it is not a joke.

As you say, it is a world in itself, as comples, I would say much more comples, than SFP for instance.

Braincell, that's a cool idea, I can imagine concerts done with a wide screen synced to the music, wow, that could be great. I'm not surprise there are quite a few people already thinking exactly the same than you.

Thank you for the introduction guys.

Now, which program to learn? I have been told there are mainly three great options, sort of Cakewalk, Cubase and Logic: Maya, 3D Studio Max and Lightwave.

The pricess of those programs are !!!!MAD!!!!, I can't believe they can cost so expensive. It seems they come with a gold bar or something.

I am planning to learn it in a long term, I mean two or even three years perhaps, because I have many other things to lean minwhile. Nevertheless, because 3D is a complex, difficult thing go learn, I would like to start from now on.

I don't want to study two or three programs, but one. Which of those three would you recomend? I've been told there are learning versions, they are sort of demos but with no time, just watermark.

Thanks you guys for your answers

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:53 pm

Nestor, Poser is a good suggestion to start. There are quite usable demo versions available and the earlier releases are cheap (afaik), but still great for getting familiar with 3d concepts.
It's a mass marketed product, so even the top of the line versions are affordable.

cheers, Tom

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:58 pm

Hey Tom, don't tell me you are also into 3D, that would be too much!

Programming is enough of a trouble I guess.

BTW: I'm very happy your program did work well, well done! Taking into account you are working with a whole new product.

Well, Poser, yes, I have seen some animations and so, but Poser it is supposed to be for human 3D modeling I think. But as you say, as an introduction could be alright for me.

Cheers.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:47 pm

Poser is for creating people and animals.

You really should learn 3D Studio Max.

Lightwave and Maya are very good also I am sure... and a lot more expensive! You have to consider that you will also want a lot of plugins.

You need to know Photoshop to create textures for mapping. Painter would work as well for this but I consider it more difficult to use although it does seem to have more options.

[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-12-18 19:49 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:31 pm

Why do you preffer Studio Max instead the others? Just because of the price? Or are there other technological considerations? Cheers.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:57 am

The price is lower. It is very popular so you can work with other people more easily. It is the oldest program (which started as 3D Studio for DOS) and there are a lot of 3rd party plugins and books for it.

I'm not an expert. You can find groups for 3D modeling on usenet. An easy way to join in is under the Google "Groups" tab.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:28 am

hi Nestor,

I just suggested Poser because it has such a narrow focus and an easy user interface.
As you understood it: just to get familiar with 3d concepts, nothing else.
We're not used to this at all in our daily life and I fail on a regular base when it comes to estimate certain dimensions during a rock climb - all looks so much smaller from below

I've supported a friend for some time who had an industrial 3D CAD system in his company - as a kind of translator between him and their tech departement

At least it's incredible what you can achieve with current graph cards - and I remember a couple of commercial videos rendered on a regular PC:
Etienne de Crécy's 'Am I wrong to hunger' and 'Scratching' were both done by his brother on home equipment (afaik). Both are among my absolute favourites

cheers, Tom

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:37 am

Perhaps but if he is going that route Bryce would be more fun.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:18 pm

naaa, Braincell - Bryce is a real bad rock modeller. In fact the program knows nothing at all about rocks

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:59 pm

I second for 3d max. It's definitely the standard, like cubase, sort of. I've studied character animation in particular, which is also a world of its own. From what I experienced, 3D is so complex, that it's actually built from a collection of different worlds. Cinematography (filming, editing, lighting), animation (acting), modeling (broken down to scenery, character, props, etc), texturing (material editing), and scripting (boning, physics scripts, macro editing). The way my project team worked, we broke these tasks amongst a team of 10 students, each with specific specialities. I did materials, lighting, and character animation.

These 3 were already more than a handfull of tasks to learn and execute. So... lemme just warn you that it's a long journey ahead. You get up to a certain point and a one man production house is impossible to run.

Maya is cool, and so is Softimage XSI. XSI has an interesting character animation system where you can fade animation in and out just like you would with audio. But both these systems are mainly targeted for big house productions with networked rendering. You'd find more casual 3DS Max users. If you're seriously considering going the 3D route, forget Lightwave, or whatever else. They're quite good and popular, but not standardized. Also, Lightwave used to be a "light" program, but now it's become bloated. If you had the time to learn Lightwave, it's better spent in learning 3DS Max.

The first thing you have to think of when you go into 3D is to check whether you're a modeling kinda guy or an animation kinda guy. Or maybe you're a director kinda guy. Once you're sure what you want to do, look for people who can do the other parts you can't do. 3D's definitely a team thing, as you'll seriously start to loose hair if you try to run everything by yourself.

It all depends how deep you want to go tho. There are dozens of smaller, cheaper programs for 3D. It even depends what you call 3D. There are dozens of 3D "effects" for AfterEffects. In the end tho, I realized that there was just too much to learn in such a short life time. So, I gave up with 3D graphics and am now concentrating on music.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-12-19 14:10 ]

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:58 pm

Very articulate post Kensuguro. This all reminds me of Synesthesia - the mixing of the senses. Yes 3D modeling is difficult. Partly because of the concepts and partly because computers and software are in their infancy. Once again I contend they ought to be melted together. Any engineers reading this please think of software that is both audio and graphic in the future. Musicians need to know more than one program and graphic designers need to know more than one program. To do both you would need to master about 6 programs. If one program could do it all, it would streamline the process. Any artist has more talents than he or she knows she has.

[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-12-19 18:58 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:15 pm

On 2003-12-19 08:57, braincell wrote:
The price is lower. It is very popular so you can work with other people more easily. It is the oldest program (which started as 3D Studio for DOS) and there are a lot of 3rd party plugins and books for it.

I'm not an expert. You can find groups for 3D modeling on usenet. An easy way to join in is under the Google "Groups" tab.

Thanks for the advices Brain

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:20 pm

On 2003-12-19 11:28, astroman wrote:
hi Nestor,

I just suggested Poser because it has such a narrow focus and an easy user interface.
As you understood it: just to get familiar with 3d concepts, nothing else.
We're not used to this at all in our daily life and I fail on a regular base when it comes to estimate certain dimensions during a rock climb - all looks so much smaller from below

I've supported a friend for some time who had an industrial 3D CAD system in his company - as a kind of translator between him and their tech departement

At least it's incredible what you can achieve with current graph cards - and I remember a couple of commercial videos rendered on a regular PC:
Etienne de Crécy's 'Am I wrong to hunger' and 'Scratching' were both done by his brother on home equipment (afaik). Both are among my absolute favourites

cheers, Tom

Cheers Tom.
Well, I knew I would get into Multimedia, so I preppare myself when I buld my new system, my video card has 128MB and a special DSP engine for fast 3D rendering. It trully is a fantastic card. I'm glad to get to know, you can do lots of things with your home PC.

I have read those guys like Spilebierg and the so, use incredible BIG super computers. I have read one of the ways they do it, and is joining about 10 of the biggest computers you can get today, linking them toguether. Amazing!

I will get a Demo of this Poser one, and will try out how it does... Cheers

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:34 pm

On 2003-12-19 13:59, kensuguro wrote:
I second for 3d max. It's definitely the standard, like cubase, sort of. I've studied character animation in particular, which is also a world of its own. From what I experienced, 3D is so complex, that it's actually built from a collection of different worlds. Cinematography (filming, editing, lighting), animation (acting), modeling (broken down to scenery, character, props, etc), texturing (material editing), and scripting (boning, physics scripts, macro editing). The way my project team worked, we broke these tasks amongst a team of 10 students, each with specific specialities. I did materials, lighting, and character animation.

These 3 were already more than a handfull of tasks to learn and execute. So... lemme just warn you that it's a long journey ahead. You get up to a certain point and a one man production house is impossible to run.

Maya is cool, and so is Softimage XSI. XSI has an interesting character animation system where you can fade animation in and out just like you would with audio. But both these systems are mainly targeted for big house productions with networked rendering. You'd find more casual 3DS Max users. If you're seriously considering going the 3D route, forget Lightwave, or whatever else. They're quite good and popular, but not standardized. Also, Lightwave used to be a "light" program, but now it's become bloated. If you had the time to learn Lightwave, it's better spent in learning 3DS Max.

The first thing you have to think of when you go into 3D is to check whether you're a modeling kinda guy or an animation kinda guy. Or maybe you're a director kinda guy. Once you're sure what you want to do, look for people who can do the other parts you can't do. 3D's definitely a team thing, as you'll seriously start to loose hair if you try to run everything by yourself.

It all depends how deep you want to go tho. There are dozens of smaller, cheaper programs for 3D. It even depends what you call 3D. There are dozens of 3D "effects" for AfterEffects. In the end tho, I realized that there was just too much to learn in such a short life time. So, I gave up with 3D graphics and am now concentrating on music.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-12-19 14:10 ]

Wow! What a cool replay Ken!

This have answered me several questions I have not yet had the time to put, so great, you have actually read my mind.

It is surprising what you get to know about Z people, till you ask them about something…

I definitely am the “director” kind of guy, with a twist of “animation”. I am not a “modeller”, it is not for me.

I don’t want to become a great professional in 3D animation, but being able to render son interesting things for most common tasks, and eventually, for presentations. Let’s say, the TV presentations and most of all, Multimedia presentations like those made in the video about the car, you yourself have posted recently.

I am aware that there is no time for everything, I prefer to do 4 things very well, than getting into 25 and never get to the bone, but this is a special case, I will be happy to include this into my Multimedia project, but, nevertheless, without looking to high. Actually, if I’m able to animate properly a few characters and render a few words in an interesting and creative 3D model, I consider myself done, in a year time.

Got clearly the picture about 3DS Studio Max, I have read a few reviews, wow… this is serious matter, it’s an immense program. There are courses of it in the USA that costs the price of a good car! It seems to be the world of an elite.

What I think, nevertheless, is that with time, things are going to get easier to manipulate, while in the other hand, getting deeper and deeper for the professional.

Thanks for your enlighten replay

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:36 pm

On 2003-12-19 18:58, braincell wrote:
Very articulate post Kensuguro. This all reminds me of Synesthesia - the mixing of the senses. Yes 3D modeling is difficult. Partly because of the concepts and partly because computers and software are in their infancy. Once again I contend they ought to be melted together. Any engineers reading this please think of software that is both audio and graphic in the future. Musicians need to know more than one program and graphic designers need to know more than one program. To do both you would need to master about 6 programs. If one program could do it all, it would streamline the process. Any artist has more talents than he or she knows she has.

[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-12-19 18:58 ]

That's a trully great idea. That would easy all the proces, and people would come with amazing things...