This last Z contest, the one with samples, made me think about the possibility of doing ourselves a database of Samples destined to the Forum members.
When I proposed to do a new contest, based on samples, Ken suggested me not to do it with loops, but with pure samples, i.e., simple-hits samples, so we could use them later. I thought this was not the idea for this contest, cos it was just for fun not intending reusing the samples later. But his idea kept going round and round into my mind for about a month or so, and thought it could be a VERY valuable and unique library we could build here, if we were to agree with a Pulsar Sample Library.
I imagine a division of the forum, built to receive Wav samples in 16, or 24 bits resolution, made with Synths, acoustic instruments, electrical instruments, voices, percussion, special effects, etc. Then we go building sort of a clear category subdivision, for example: Ethnic, Electric Guitar, Electric Bass, Analogue Synths, FM Synths, etc.
I think this could be a fantastic resource for us, in a world that musically is using more and more samples to create music.
I realised, listening to the samples posted to the FTP recently, from Chris, Ken, John and myself, that to say “SAMPLES” is not just the sound of an instrument you can use, but the way it was played, mixed, etc., that you will not otherwise get. I explain myself better: it is not ONLY the instrument sound and timbre, but the unique understanding and feeling of the poster, that is most important; I myself, will never be able to do music with the “intention” that Chris, Ken or John do, and they will not be able to do things as I do. So building a sample collection is not just sharing sounds to do some music, but our own musical background, our unique STYLE and feelings.
I personally find it extremely interesting. Of course, we should see if the project is viable, if there is space in the Z for it, and if it is possible for John to do it.
What do you think? Please, post your answer here.
_________________
Music is the most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2003-12-20 21:31 ]</font>
Perhaps, the last forum division for the Z?***A Z SAMPLE dat
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kensuguro
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ya, definitely a good idea. I recently had to do 30 short jingles in a day, and I realized that I couldn't spend the time to build each of my samples. So, a large sample bin would be really helpful. And plus, it's a great way to put the creativity of this community into practical use that everyone can benefit from. I guess the modular patch forum is kind of similar, but a "sample" forum is a bit more easy to use.
Some of you may recall the hiphop drum kit I posted on the STS forum. Perhaps it's right on track with what we're trying to get started here. So maybe it's as easy as adding an "upload" option to the STS forum.
Some of you may recall the hiphop drum kit I posted on the STS forum. Perhaps it's right on track with what we're trying to get started here. So maybe it's as easy as adding an "upload" option to the STS forum.
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Nestor
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Do you think so Ken? I think this should be a separate forum, if it comes to be, because it is too specific and needs clear a organazation.
I'm thinking about a place you can get to upload and download the files in a quite organized way, with its categories and sub-categories. Perhaps we could do a short description of each sample made of course, by the maker.
Due to the enourmous interest that samples can create, I think it is intelligent to build a separate and specific place for them, or this will be a mess in a couple of months. Here we are about 2000 people now, we are going to be more in the future; if you consider the amount of people writing to the forum, we are rather a few, but when talking about samples, the 2000 users will come up, to at least, download samples, and hopefully to upload a few ones as well.
I'm thinking about a place you can get to upload and download the files in a quite organized way, with its categories and sub-categories. Perhaps we could do a short description of each sample made of course, by the maker.
Due to the enourmous interest that samples can create, I think it is intelligent to build a separate and specific place for them, or this will be a mess in a couple of months. Here we are about 2000 people now, we are going to be more in the future; if you consider the amount of people writing to the forum, we are rather a few, but when talking about samples, the 2000 users will come up, to at least, download samples, and hopefully to upload a few ones as well.
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John Cooper
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Guys,
I really like this idea, but there's a couple problems that make me think this may not be doable.
When I first started planetz, I had a very similar idea. This was back in my pre-pulsar days
I wanted to set up an interactive database of loops. People could upload/download at will. For each loop, you'd specify genre, bpm, and other various annotations.
I approached Big Fish, East West, Sonic Foundry to discuss it (to see if they wanted to contribute some free loops), and they all *strongly* discouraged me. Probably part of it was that I was planning it as a free service, which they were obviously not excited about. But the other reason was that I'd have no way of knowing whether the uploaded material was violating copyrights. They viewed it as a pirate's haven. So I gave up, and eventually redirected my enthusiasm for developing an interactive community into the pulsar-related stuff.
So... Nestor's idea is about individual samples rather than loops. The question is, will I have the same kind of copyright concerns as with the loops? I think maybe so. (Perhap's it's enough to have a checkbox when you upload saying "I certify that this recording does not violate any copyright laws, and agree to indemnify planetz blah blah....")
The other question is about webhosting issues. The idea of a samples-database is great, but it's not pulsar-specific. In other words, it could attract a *much* larger community of people. Free stuff always attracts a crowd
I'm not sure if you guys are all really aware how lucky we are. The planetz community uses a huge amount of server resources and bandwidth. We have about 4 gigabytes of user files (increasing every day), and our bandwidth usage is about 500mb/day. Some of you may remember how disastrous our throughput performance was at our previous webhost (featureprice.com) - they throttle performance as soon as bandwidth reaches any significant level- one person downloading an mp3 could slow down the entire site for everyone else. At our current webhost, we have fantastic throughput and performance, with little or no throughput-throttling. At any normal webhost, we'd need to spend hundreds of dollars per month to have this kind of environment. We're lucky that a friend of mine who runs a small webhost with a few large corporate clients has allowed planetz to piggyback on his server for a much smaller monthly cost, as long as we don't significantly cut into the bandwidth needed by his corporate clients.
A sample database will require a lot of new diskspace (uncompressed wave's). Also, because many more people would be downloading, we'd be using much more bandwidth than we use now. I could approach my friend and describe the possibilities, but I'm afraid to push our luck when we already are using so much of his webhost's resources. What's the appropriate expression? Don't look a gifthorse in the mouth? Don't bite the hand that feeds you?
Your thoughts?
-John
I really like this idea, but there's a couple problems that make me think this may not be doable.
When I first started planetz, I had a very similar idea. This was back in my pre-pulsar days
I wanted to set up an interactive database of loops. People could upload/download at will. For each loop, you'd specify genre, bpm, and other various annotations.I approached Big Fish, East West, Sonic Foundry to discuss it (to see if they wanted to contribute some free loops), and they all *strongly* discouraged me. Probably part of it was that I was planning it as a free service, which they were obviously not excited about. But the other reason was that I'd have no way of knowing whether the uploaded material was violating copyrights. They viewed it as a pirate's haven. So I gave up, and eventually redirected my enthusiasm for developing an interactive community into the pulsar-related stuff.
So... Nestor's idea is about individual samples rather than loops. The question is, will I have the same kind of copyright concerns as with the loops? I think maybe so. (Perhap's it's enough to have a checkbox when you upload saying "I certify that this recording does not violate any copyright laws, and agree to indemnify planetz blah blah....")
The other question is about webhosting issues. The idea of a samples-database is great, but it's not pulsar-specific. In other words, it could attract a *much* larger community of people. Free stuff always attracts a crowd
I'm not sure if you guys are all really aware how lucky we are. The planetz community uses a huge amount of server resources and bandwidth. We have about 4 gigabytes of user files (increasing every day), and our bandwidth usage is about 500mb/day. Some of you may remember how disastrous our throughput performance was at our previous webhost (featureprice.com) - they throttle performance as soon as bandwidth reaches any significant level- one person downloading an mp3 could slow down the entire site for everyone else. At our current webhost, we have fantastic throughput and performance, with little or no throughput-throttling. At any normal webhost, we'd need to spend hundreds of dollars per month to have this kind of environment. We're lucky that a friend of mine who runs a small webhost with a few large corporate clients has allowed planetz to piggyback on his server for a much smaller monthly cost, as long as we don't significantly cut into the bandwidth needed by his corporate clients.
A sample database will require a lot of new diskspace (uncompressed wave's). Also, because many more people would be downloading, we'd be using much more bandwidth than we use now. I could approach my friend and describe the possibilities, but I'm afraid to push our luck when we already are using so much of his webhost's resources. What's the appropriate expression? Don't look a gifthorse in the mouth? Don't bite the hand that feeds you?
Your thoughts?
-John
I didn't understand Gary's last reply, but as much, as I would like such a resource, I also think, that it is a bit out of our scope (is that the right word). Better keep our nice forum, than throwing it to the pigs = letting a lot of (probably nice) people download the **** out of the server and put the forum in an unfortunate situation.
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Nestor
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Upsss, I need to entirely rethink this…
Copyright concern is a serious matter, particularly if it becomes a public thing. Perhaps, we could build something much smaller having a semiprivate character as well. I’m just speculating right now, don’t take it too seriously cos I need to think more about it, but, just a couple of ideas come to my mind:
A private Sample area:
Only members that have been for 6 or even 12 months into the Z, can participate, uploading or downloading.
Samples cannot be used for selling:
Those samples cannot be used for selling, they can only be used by the restricted community members.
No open access:
A password is needed to get into the sample area, which is given by John, NON transferable, to the already user.
Limited bandwidth per month per person:
You can download a certain amount of samples per month, said it otherwise, you can download a limited amount of megabytes per month.
Samples will be up into the forum for a limited period of time:
If you don’t download the samples in time, you lose the opportunity, cos they will be deleted after, let say, 15 days, or a month time. This will dramatically decrease the use of space.
Well, this is it… I’m just speculating and so, am not calculating very well all this, it is perhaps wise not doing a thing and just keep going the way we have been since today. In Spanish we have exactly the same say: “A caballo regalado, no le mires los dientes”.
Copyright concern is a serious matter, particularly if it becomes a public thing. Perhaps, we could build something much smaller having a semiprivate character as well. I’m just speculating right now, don’t take it too seriously cos I need to think more about it, but, just a couple of ideas come to my mind:
A private Sample area:
Only members that have been for 6 or even 12 months into the Z, can participate, uploading or downloading.
Samples cannot be used for selling:
Those samples cannot be used for selling, they can only be used by the restricted community members.
No open access:
A password is needed to get into the sample area, which is given by John, NON transferable, to the already user.
Limited bandwidth per month per person:
You can download a certain amount of samples per month, said it otherwise, you can download a limited amount of megabytes per month.
Samples will be up into the forum for a limited period of time:
If you don’t download the samples in time, you lose the opportunity, cos they will be deleted after, let say, 15 days, or a month time. This will dramatically decrease the use of space.
Well, this is it… I’m just speculating and so, am not calculating very well all this, it is perhaps wise not doing a thing and just keep going the way we have been since today. In Spanish we have exactly the same say: “A caballo regalado, no le mires los dientes”.
A solution could be to put a section strictly related to sfp devices (changing the last section of plz a bit), where samples of sounds and loops made only with sfp synths could be sent, of a maximum size of 5 seconds if uncompressed.
This would attract a lot of people, but could be very important to promote CW sound, and help platform's future developement.
It would be also specific, no 3rd p. samples
at all, only sound synthesized in sfp.
The amount of storage GB could be fixed, samples could have a rating, and gradually removed to make space for the new ones, making free space removing the low rated ones.
It could have also a section where sts program files are saved, made with the available samples, to download separately. In this case, the sample removing rules have to be studied a bit...but the fixed global limit should be kept anyway.
A possibility....
This would attract a lot of people, but could be very important to promote CW sound, and help platform's future developement.
It would be also specific, no 3rd p. samples
at all, only sound synthesized in sfp.
The amount of storage GB could be fixed, samples could have a rating, and gradually removed to make space for the new ones, making free space removing the low rated ones.
It could have also a section where sts program files are saved, made with the available samples, to download separately. In this case, the sample removing rules have to be studied a bit...but the fixed global limit should be kept anyway.
A possibility....
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Nestor
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Cheers Alfonso. I think the way you are puting it, it could even get Creamweare into it. Perhaps a seccion in the Z forum, but related directly to Creamware, having "space" and "bandwith" comming from Creamweare itself. If this is a way of promoting their boards and plug-ins, I don't see why not.
But they will argue, of course, that the devices to be used, would be the standard only, and not the plugins like Vectron for instance.
But they will argue, of course, that the devices to be used, would be the standard only, and not the plugins like Vectron for instance.
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ChrisWerner
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Hmm, I have mixed feelings about that.
When we want to build up a sample pool we´ll get more people here to Z,sure but many of them will come only to get those samples.
That will not pay the work we put on the samples and will not pay the bills for the traffic. If people want to hear how SFP sounds they can download as many music tracks they like from the music forum already.
Second:
I think I won´t be in to build up such pool because I see no advantage in it.
See it from that side, the PlanetZ community solves many many problems for SFP users, develops many nice patches and presents lots of news and great ideas every day. We do a lot already. My question is that, what we´ll get back from that sample pool and what we´ll get from CW?
The last present were those effects at christmas some years ago.
Anyway, this is a nice idea and I see that Nestor wants to drive PlanetZ to new spheres, good but a sample pool is not the right way from my view.
It will set Z on a very difficult way to go. Copyrights, larger traffic, bigger bills.
I can´t believe that we put many work in producing samples and then we have to donate more money too.
If we want to do such things we should think about to sell those samples for small money, maybe 1 or 5€(to say a number) not for the producers but to finance Z.
Anyway, I believe that this is a way that John wont go. All should be free here,or?
Are my thoughts wrong?
When we want to build up a sample pool we´ll get more people here to Z,sure but many of them will come only to get those samples.
That will not pay the work we put on the samples and will not pay the bills for the traffic. If people want to hear how SFP sounds they can download as many music tracks they like from the music forum already.
Second:
I think I won´t be in to build up such pool because I see no advantage in it.
See it from that side, the PlanetZ community solves many many problems for SFP users, develops many nice patches and presents lots of news and great ideas every day. We do a lot already. My question is that, what we´ll get back from that sample pool and what we´ll get from CW?
The last present were those effects at christmas some years ago.
Anyway, this is a nice idea and I see that Nestor wants to drive PlanetZ to new spheres, good but a sample pool is not the right way from my view.
It will set Z on a very difficult way to go. Copyrights, larger traffic, bigger bills.
I can´t believe that we put many work in producing samples and then we have to donate more money too.
If we want to do such things we should think about to sell those samples for small money, maybe 1 or 5€(to say a number) not for the producers but to finance Z.
Anyway, I believe that this is a way that John wont go. All should be free here,or?
Are my thoughts wrong?
I'm with John too on this. I like the idea, but z server will indeed be stressed by sample leechers: people from all over the audio world downloading any sample online. My thought is that z server uploads will be a large multiple of what they are now and z does not need all that attention. I also see no option in CW participating or hosting, since servers make a huge expense in their budget already. And as you know, they did not exactly win the lottery lately.
IMHO if anything is to change on this forum to improve the publicity effect of the songs, we could start with rating the songs more in music forum, making it easier for everyone to catch the best music online here. In any case, I think we should rate any files we get from z, or find a way to have us rate the previous download before getting a next file.
How can someone from outside z judge if a song/device is cool for download if there's no or very little rating? The easiest way would be to sort on rating, but this is usually irrelevant with so few ratings on the files.
We're all muzo's and should be able to judge not on style but on craftmanship. Of course remarks and encouragement from fellow pulsarians should not be forgotten as an important decisive matter, but you can't expect someone from outside z to start reading all the comments before grasping an mp3.
IMHO if anything is to change on this forum to improve the publicity effect of the songs, we could start with rating the songs more in music forum, making it easier for everyone to catch the best music online here. In any case, I think we should rate any files we get from z, or find a way to have us rate the previous download before getting a next file.
How can someone from outside z judge if a song/device is cool for download if there's no or very little rating? The easiest way would be to sort on rating, but this is usually irrelevant with so few ratings on the files.
We're all muzo's and should be able to judge not on style but on craftmanship. Of course remarks and encouragement from fellow pulsarians should not be forgotten as an important decisive matter, but you can't expect someone from outside z to start reading all the comments before grasping an mp3.
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Nestor
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Even if the idea of promoting the Z is great, this is not at all what I intended in the first place. I haven't thought of bringing the Z to a different level of audience or something similar. My reason to this is "SAMPLES", as simple as that, to own a few good samples from people here, and have the opportunity to give them mine.
I am not thinking about promoting our music, or our forum, not even Creamweare stuff, even if all this could be great. What I trully watn is to have some exclusive samples we can do ourselves, and I know this would be a special collection, cos of the special crowd up here... I'm sure they would be a magnificent collection.
Anyway, I don't want to push something that will cause problems in any way guys. It was just an idea. The idea is cool, it is easy to understand why, but it is perhaps too demanding...
I am not thinking about promoting our music, or our forum, not even Creamweare stuff, even if all this could be great. What I trully watn is to have some exclusive samples we can do ourselves, and I know this would be a special collection, cos of the special crowd up here...
I'm sure they would be a magnificent collection.Anyway, I don't want to push something that will cause problems in any way guys. It was just an idea. The idea is cool, it is easy to understand why, but it is perhaps too demanding...
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hubird
I don't see much in it, I don't feel interested in it, sorry
You always can private-message someone on planetz you like to cooperate with, and ask for some musical action.
Works faster, is more to the point making a song, and doesn't need 'management' of many files.
Besides John's problems with it, you risk to create more bureaucracy than an really interesting sample collection.
So many sample cd's out there, in every style, all of them hi quality
You always can private-message someone on planetz you like to cooperate with, and ask for some musical action.
Works faster, is more to the point making a song, and doesn't need 'management' of many files.
Besides John's problems with it, you risk to create more bureaucracy than an really interesting sample collection.
So many sample cd's out there, in every style, all of them hi quality
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kensuguro
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well, the idea I think already exists on a small scale.. again, people are sharing STS libraries in the preset forum and in the STS forum. Building a full fledged file management system will definitely be too much workload for .. well, almost nothing tangible in return. It maybe a good starting point for a separate website tho.
I am totally for keeping this forum doing what its good at - Providing help and advice on not only Creamware products, but most pro audio equipment.
Knowledge is power. I like the idea that in buying into Creamware, I also bought (not financially) a database of information in PlanetZ, second to none that I have also contributed some help to.
Keep PlanetZ as is. Lets keep our tips and tricks for ourselves and keep the edge.
My 0.2p
Knowledge is power. I like the idea that in buying into Creamware, I also bought (not financially) a database of information in PlanetZ, second to none that I have also contributed some help to.
Keep PlanetZ as is. Lets keep our tips and tricks for ourselves and keep the edge.
My 0.2p
martin granger
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ChrisWerner
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Okay something off topic maybe but another nice idea captured me while I thought about the sample pool.
What do you think about a "Best Of PlanetZ" CD?
The CD arises once a year, it will be a hybrid CD and will contain the best music tracks in CD quality of course and all patches and devices of the year.
It could be a nice challenge for everyone to be on that CD. Also this will boost the votes in the music forum.
We´ve got so many talents here, musicans as graphic guys, so it should be easy for us to get such CD together. We can sell this CD for a small price to finance Z and anybody who donates some money will get this CD for free. Also it would be nice to have a Z CD collection in our shelves after some years.
?
What do you think about a "Best Of PlanetZ" CD?
The CD arises once a year, it will be a hybrid CD and will contain the best music tracks in CD quality of course and all patches and devices of the year.
It could be a nice challenge for everyone to be on that CD. Also this will boost the votes in the music forum.
We´ve got so many talents here, musicans as graphic guys, so it should be easy for us to get such CD together. We can sell this CD for a small price to finance Z and anybody who donates some money will get this CD for free. Also it would be nice to have a Z CD collection in our shelves after some years.
?
Good idea. I like it.On 2003-12-22 05:31, ChrisWerner wrote:
Okay something off topic maybe but another nice idea captured me while I thought about the sample pool.
What do you think about a "Best Of PlanetZ" CD?
The CD arises once a year, it will be a hybrid CD and will contain the best music tracks in CD quality of course and all patches and devices of the year.
It could be a nice challenge for everyone to be on that CD. Also this will boost the votes in the music forum.
We´ve got so many talents here, musicans as graphic guys, so it should be easy for us to get such CD together. We can sell this CD for a small price to finance Z and anybody who donates some money will get this CD for free. Also it would be nice to have a Z CD collection in our shelves after some years.
?