Audio streaming formats

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:47 pm

Hello!

I am currently building my site (with Frontpage) and I want to upload there some demos I ve done.

I want to make the page in such a way so that people can listen to my music when they are on-line, but they wont have the possibility to download it to their hard drive.

How could I do that? What kind of tools do I need? (Frontpage, Flash etc) What audio format should I choose that is suitable for this purpose? I dont want a very esoteric format that nobody will know or have the player to play it, but something universal for all platforms (MP3 possibly?)

Any ideas? Thank you!

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:10 pm

The easiest way would be to drop the music into a swf format. What you actually get is an MP3 embedded in the swf, so you determine exactly what bitrate you want. But the mp3 can't be "disassembled" from the swf (well, not without lots of stuffing around).

And is anyone really going to drag a swf file from their cache and put that amongst their MP3 collection ? Nope.

You can also stream the swf so it's an excellent web delvery medium for music.

True streaming of Realplayer or similar is way more messy (and expensive).

http://www.wildform.com have some interesting products to convert wave and mp3 to swf and to deliver the file in a streaming player. It's a much cheaper option than buying Flash MX. And even if you do, it's much more simple.

That's enough from me !

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:46 pm

Well, real streaming should be neither messy nor expensive (Real Helix is free, for example), but more or less useless without your own server - then Icecast would be a great option, too.

On the other hand, it's (next to) impossible to create online media that can't be ripped (pretty obvious, if it's possbile to actually see or hear 'em, it's of course possible to rip 'em).

So, I would suggest to use a format like Real, use a "sufficient" compression (not suited to archive the stuff, but good enough to listen to), and use simple http streaming...

Oh, and something else: do yourself a favor, dump Frontpage - it's like writing your music with Magix MusicMaker...

If you need WYSIWYG, use Dreamweaver; if you want to learn some HTML use Phase5 or jEdit.

[ This Message was edited by: wsippel on 2004-04-27 23:47 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:40 am

Problem with Real is many people won't install the player.

Personally I don't mind it at all & it's not too obtrusive so long as you're careful what file types you associate.

Flash also has a much wider installed base.

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:03 am

Thank you guys for the replies!

I am gonna check out your suggestions!

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:02 pm

Just for info, Quicktime and Realplayer I both consider as spyware, not mediaplayers. I use Kazaalite's Mediaplayer hack to play both file types. I guess that hack is illegal too... at least it doesn't compromise my privacy.

I refuse to install any of those players on any machine, and would hereby advise people to do the same. I don't feel like being part of their corporate nation, do you?

This doesn't make it easier to share media on a website...

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:39 pm

I wouldn't have compared the both realplayer (or realpainer) and quicktime. But it can be true for PC. On a Mac living without quicktime is not possible.

Post by **hubird** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:21 pm

QT is also spyware?
I guess from OS-X on then, but I now nothing of the subject

Sam has right, it's hard to miss on a mac.
At least it's 'ad behaviour' is much more pretty.
Anyway, I'm gonne check the KaZaa player

Hm, I'm afraid it's just windows.
Well, the tip is usefull for my office pc anyway

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:35 pm

Living without QT on OSX is possible...

I would suggest to try MPlayerOSX, as it's Open Source (100% spyware free) and plays a lot of different formats (more than QT), and it has better postprocessing than QT (check the comparsion on the homepage).

Don't know exactly what formats are supported on OSX, the Linux version plays MPEG1/2/4, DivX, Xvid, Real, QT, Windows Media <= 9, Theora, Matroska, OGG, MP3, FLAC, AAC...

http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:19 pm

For your purpose, I have tryed SWF files and they work excelent, I vote 100% for Flash, becuase you'll be able to do many more things with your music, presenting your web with a real pro look as well.

Post by **hubird** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:25 pm

like does 'my' Quicktime on http://www.ezsound.nl ?

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:30 am

On 2004-04-28 19:35, wsippel wrote:
Living without QT on OSX is possible...

Many audio/video programs require QT.

[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2004-04-29 03:30 ]

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:54 am

Hello guys and thank you for your replies!

Up to the moment I have tried only .swf files. The problem with them is that a copy of the streamed file stays into your Temporary Internet Files Folder, which I dont want.
I ve seen that it is possible to stream (many types of) audio files by having a playlist/redirector file on to your html page. Having for example an .m3u or an .wax file pointing to an .mp3 or a .wma respectively. In this way, if you right click the link only the redirector/playlist file gets saved and not the actual audio file.
What I dont know is if the server, where my page is uploaded, needs to have a specific program or something that allows audio streaming.

I have two other questions and I d like your opinion.
The first question regards the amount of compression and the size of the files. Do you think it is better to have CD-quality or transparent-quality demos? Or is it better to have them in a lower quality for quicker streaming (PSTN/ISDN) and in order to avoid that they get ripped by other means?

The second question is somehow related to the first and has to do with the format. Mp3, Mp3Pro, Ogg Vorbis, Wma... I want a format that it is easy for everybody to play (Win, Mac) and that doesnt need any special players (or if it does, these are simple and small programs that can be downloaded very easily and quickly). I did various tests with the above mentioned formats and it seems that Ogg Vorbis is WAY ahead from the others. Better sounding and smaller. The problem is that in Windows only Winamp seems to support it (WMPlayer 9, doesnt open it). Do you know of any other programs that do? Or is there any way that I could install a codec for WMP to be able to play it? And what about Mac? Are there any common players that support it?

Thanks a lot for your help!

I think this topic can be useful as well for others, who plan to create a web page with their music.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:57 am

Maybe I'm missing the point about what you want to do here, but whether or not a file is left in your cache is largely irrelevant imho.

If the sound coming out of your PC when listening is good enough then people will just record the stream anyway using Soundforge or dozens of other apps.

I've done this myself from a 128K streaming radio station.

The only question is "degree of difficulty".

If you provide a 128K MP3 sitting on your page saying "please download" it will be easy.

If you embed that in a swf file it will be a bit harder. Believe me, many, many people have no idea that you can drag files from the internet cache. But if they want to grab the file, it's there, sure. But as an swf it will not be "player friendly". They will probably have to record it again and then save to MP3. Definite degradation in quality there from the original swf since you are compressing twice.

If you do a true stream of the music then all you really do is ensure there is no cache file. But if people want your music they will still just record it "live" from the site.

Perhaps you have other considerations which makes the decision more obvious, but to me the situation is plain: whatever people can hear they can capture - it doesn't matter what format it's in or how it's delivered.

So if it was me, I'd forget that aspect. There is no security. You can't protect the sound.

Instead you might think about presenting just a 30-second clip in 128K or 192K MP3.

Or be a like a synth demo and put in a "bleep" or white noise burst every so often.

So far as formats go I wouldn't stuff about with anything other than MP3 or swf. They are as common as muck. Stay simple.

Remember that you might be routing the sound through studio monitors, but many people will be listening through cheap PC speakers. Spending a huge amount of effort on a 5% improvement in sound quality will be wasted effort imho. Spend that time making your website look good instead.

As for quality the lowest I ever encode is 32K mono MP3. For me that's about the lowest quality you can go and still have bearable listening, although even then it can depend on the piece. But few people would want to "steal" music of that quality.

My 2c. I'm sure many have vastly different ideas on this...

[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2004-04-29 11:00 ]

Post by **hubird** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:22 am

agreed with every one idea