What Creamware needs.....

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:22 pm

Slightly off-topic, but... Apparently Digidesign is getting into live sound now. Just like Mackie tried to do a couple of years ago.

I wonder if some senior-level white collars are going to be on the chopping block in about a year...

CWA, please do not ever fall for the live sound trap. There's no money there. Digidesign will find this out the hard way.

To get slightly back on topic: I somewhat agree with Tim that there's been far too much of a synth focus from CreamWare, and not enough pushing in the (semi-)pro audio market.

Nevertheless anyone who has been using CreamWare "from the early beginning on" (a claim I seriously doubt) should consider CreamWare products an important, if not central, part of their studio. It's an investment. I don't throw away my outboard gear just because there's some new P.O.S. made by Behringer that uses more modern noiseless op amps. Why would I chuck my CWA cards for the latest and greatest DSP card? My existing cards do the job and sound great, too. The latest and greatest is almost always over-hyped marketing crap.

Back to Digidesign - a company that throws out their hardware every few years and expects their customers to buy the new faster, slicker units. That is an approach that personally I can't stand. I would'nt be a loyal CreamWare customer if I thought they were going to stop supporting my hardware in favour of some newer faster units.

I'm all for new plugins. Bring 'em on. In fact, based on what people have said here, I'm starting to think about finally investing in some 3rd party plugs.

But CWA please don't spend a huge chunk of venture capital on new board designs. I really hope the next generation of CreamWare cards takes years and is done right, in order to meet specific needs and requirements of existing customers.

Cheers,

Johann

Post by **garyb** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:22 am

cwa has made mistakes, but cwa has done a lot of things right as well, or we wouldn't be here. it's easy to criticize and impossible to prove if the solution was good or not. even if the company fails, it doesn't prove the criticism true because there's the possibility that the critic's approach wouldn't have worked either. criticism is good, it helps he who is criticized to see his reflection. let's just not lose perspective. none know the full situation but cwa management. they have to be the best ones to make the decisions even if they make bad ones(as all humans sometimes do).

personally, i'd like to see the company make new products, but if those new products disable the old ones, that would be a sad day as the platform is still vital, effective and unique, and these cards will be functional for several years in pcs. an upgrade to pcx or something might be nice.. i like cards in the computer as right on the main bus is where i want the audio data, but i'm not against an external solution that works(and maybe integrates the old cards).

the sharcs are just fine although a faster chip that integrates with the current platform would be welcome.

i too would like to see the audio end of the platform more thoroughly exploited and publicized by cwa as it's one of the scope platform's strong points, but those old analog synths ARE phenomenal and the modular thing is really something as well. people who don't know that know little of the history of synthesis, nor do they know much about how things work in the "big time"(real world).

keep the ideas flowing, but don't think that your idea is ultimate. nothing is ultimate and things can always be improved. as they say, hindsight is 20/20. but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. how about buying a third party plugin?

*edit* shouldn't this be in the general discussion forum?

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2004-08-10 01:40 ]

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:05 am

Well, here's the real number : 46 (This could be alittle more, like 2-8 units).

Not much...................

Cheers

wow, that's pretty low.

I wonder what the average amount of sales for 3rd party devices like this is...
Creamware should at least make announcements of such devices on their site. IF you're not on PlanetZ, how are you ever gonna now about the P100? Or the Echo3? CWA should be at least mentioning it on their site and in their periodical emails. The continuing high-quality 3rd party development is pretty much what's keeping people interested in Scope at the moment.

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-08-10 07:37 ]

Tim Taylor · Post by **Tim Taylor** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:32 am

On 2004-08-09 08:07, Plato wrote:
Also, name another platform which gives you half the routing possibilities of Scope...you'd be hard-pushed.

Hey, 5000 buckets for a routing-board is a little bit expensive

A board that is defined by its independency from the OS is cool, but not enough to become a topseller.

digidesign versus CW: Well digidesign has the professionalest pluginz and developing-firms for ProAudio-Productions for their platform ... Why isn´t it possible to port some of these great Plugz to the Scope-Platform ??? Sonic-Timeworks is the only one who does. What about WAVES, Sonic, Lexicon, Walldorf, Aphex, Antares, TC, access, Prosoniq and Sony.

Well TC wouldn´t do so, because of their own DSP-Solution (Powercore).

I wished to have a Restauration-Suite, a great Room-modeling-Reverb for Scope or such a thing like the reNOVAtor™ from algorithmix (http://www.algorithmix.com/en/renovator.htm). The WAVES 360°-Surroundtools and the Diamond-Bundle would be also great.

Adding new boards to increase the DSP-Power is expensive and not a real solution for the problem I mentioned. The PCI-Bus is old,too weak (the old overflow-problems

) and so it will be vanish the next 3 years from motherboards ... if one PCI-Slot rests this would be maximum I think.

Look, if you have a project, that uses the VECTRON (one of the greatest synths ever developed !!!) with several voices, and the RedDwarf with several voices one Scope-Board is too weak to manage it.
That´s absolutely not an unusual configuration during a production. Only two synths open and no more DSP-Resources ... hm.

Other example from my daily work:
You have a video-sequence in Samplitude and you have to mix the sound in 5.1.
Well Samplitude gives you great native tools for that, but what you need, is a very fast computer to manage everything.
More than 30 audio and midi-channels are open and on the master-section you have reverbs and compressors.
Yeah that sounds a bit crazy, but if you want to do a good job, i think you have to control every parameter live and realtime.

Okay it would be possible to mixdown some channels sperate to save some ressources, but that is not a solution, only a compromis.

Live control on every parameter during my work is my dream. So I export heavy sample-jobs to the STS-Samplers and the compressor-jobs to VINCO if there are enough resources rested on Scope.

I´m going to test the P100 and the Echo3 during my next project ... description on the websites sounds very interesting.
Why the hell CW doesn´t mention it on their website ?

[ This Message was edited by: Tim Taylor on 2004-08-10 06:56 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:06 am

I would like for my virus or my Emu to be able to do amp & speaker cabinet modelling as well since Sampletank can do it. And why can't my little analog synth also do all that reaktor can? I feel ripped off!

Seriously there is some merit to what you say but Creamware has stated that they will keep to their core business and in their current situation that's probably a good thing for them. Also almost all of this conversation can be answered simply by using the search function to uncover the 10-20 threads that have discussed the very same topic over the last few years.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:31 am

On 2004-08-10 06:32, Tim Taylor wrote:
... digidesign versus CW: Well digidesign has the professionalest pluginz and developing-firms for ProAudio-Productions for their platform ... Why isn´t it possible to port some of these great Plugz to the Scope-Platform ??? Sonic-Timeworks is the only one who does. What about WAVES, Sonic, Lexicon, Walldorf, Aphex, Antares, TC, access, Prosoniq and Sony...

not exactly on the topic, but I guess there would be a similiar result if...

as the final 'gag' of a TV show an actress was presented a table full of beer glasses (filled !) and empty bottles with flags of the brews origins.
Task was to taste the beer and pick the corresponding bottle/flag duo and do a little blah about it's quality etc.

Well, she considered herself experienced, but what happened was that the drinks she dissed most 'uaahh... shudder, can't drink that...' were actually the ones she preferred most in her talk '...ahh that's a fine Budweiser...' and vice versa.

it was pretty embassing when the solution was presented and she looked really clueless the first moment, but she managed to play over it...

Of course Digidesign has an advantage (2 to be precise) they are the longest time in the business (pros don't change a system once it's known to perform) and they are MicroDollar backed.

Waldorf had some good stuff but went out of business recently.
TC remarket their 19" gear in and around the PC (same DSPs, as ProTools, the Virus and Clavia)

Imho the undoubtfully missing success in SFP plugin sales (see the P100 discussion) must have completely different reasons.

Even if CWA 'interpolated' their user count according to marketing desire and one subtracts 50% of the systems as dedicated to radio processing, there would still be more than enough potential buyers left.
But noone buys, hence there's no interest to buy - or no desire, no wanna, no must-have.

The stuff is too cheap, in both price and appearance.
Pro gear isn't cheapo by default, in fact there must be something wrong when it's cheap...

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-08-10 12:43 ]

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:48 am

If sales don't double, maybe prices will have to.
C'mon people, buy this stuff while it's a bargain.

/dave

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:54 am

On 2004-08-10 06:32, Tim Taylor wrote:
digidesign versus CW: Well digidesign has the professionalest pluginz and developing-firms for ProAudio-Productions for their platform ... Why isn´t it possible to port some of these great Plugz to the Scope-Platform ??? Sonic-Timeworks is the only one who does. What about WAVES, Sonic, Lexicon, Walldorf, Aphex, Antares, TC, access, Prosoniq and Sony.

Well that's what the SDK is supposed to be all about. They also have plans to make the atom-creating software more available, so other people can REALLY jump on the bandwagon. But we haven't seen anything yet.

I really hope they get it out soon...

Shayne

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:26 pm

I completely disagree on the purpose of the SDK release. Imho it's an extra to attract a certain type of ambitious hobbyists, read it's a hardware promo.
Obviously there isn't even any business relevance in it's current form...

and your argument about the 'atom creating part' is a weak one.
Those (few) programmers able to deal with DSP assembly code could as well get the kit from Analog and release their own hardware version of whatever they program.
Keep in mind that the Virus started right THAT way (with a Motorola kit).

cheers, Tom

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:27 pm

I agree with Valis on this one.

I need a coffee maker for my studio. Why doesn't SCOPE provide that for me? Oh and a fridge would be nice. It would be really cool if the Pulsar cards could double as lava lamps, too.

Hey why not make SFP drinkable? Just put a spout on your Pulsar II and drink all that DSP warmth.

Mehdi_T · Post by **Mehdi_T** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:16 am

-- oops, wrong thread

[ This Message was edited by: Mehdi_T on 2004-08-20 12:04 ]

AndreD · Post by **AndreD** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:29 am

On 2004-08-10 13:27, blazesboylan wrote:
I agree with Valis on this one.

I need a coffee maker for my studio. Why doesn't SCOPE provide that for me?

There is no PCI-solution!
USB is the way to go!

<img src="http://www.com-tra.de/img/p/05729_o.jpg">

Mehdi_T · Post by **Mehdi_T** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:43 am

is it usb 1 or 2 ?
cause i heard usb 1 has less bandwith.

[ This Message was edited by: Mehdi_T on 2004-08-11 09:44 ]

Warp69 · Post by **Warp69** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:01 am

Hey,

Only sold 56 Echo2/3..... The future does indeed look very sad.

There's no point in reading the Device/Module Wishlist section, since the device will only sell around 50 units at most.

No high profile developer will release any plugins for Scope platform if they only sell 150 units. They would need to recompile (and probably hand code 50%) and make changes to the graphic and preset handling. How many would buy a Waves Bundle? Not even 100.

I completely agree with astroman - the SDK wont save the 3rd party situation at all. And 99.9% dont even know how to create high quality plugins. And btw, very few will get access to the scripting module.

Cheers

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:09 am

I'd personally love to buy more SFP-based stuff, particularly:

Minimax
Celmo's GAM
TC's Transient Designer
Modular III

But at present (and for some time now), my personal finances are somewhat screwed

I'm currently living on about £4 a day which is quite tough...as my grandmother once said (very wisely): "If you haven't got it, you have to go without."

SFP is a great platform, and is exactly what I've been wishing for since first running Cubase v2 on an Atari, but I think that the 6-DSP boards are perhaps a little pricey considering their limitations. Having said that, I don't know enough about the 'opposition' to be able to make accurate comparisons. Also, I am not a full-time professional musician/engineer, whose considerations and requirements must be very different from my own!

What a few thousand pounds can put at your disposal with this system is truly remarkable, compared to some studios I've seen with £250,000+ of equipment in them (and that going back some time, so at today's prices...!)

If you love motorcycling and want to learn how to race, you'll spend £10,000+ on the basic machine and another £8,000+ on upgrading it. If you love music, then what's the big deal about spending £4,000 or so to get a studio equivalent to tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds of 'old tech'?

Royston

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:46 am

On 2004-08-11 12:01, Warp69 wrote:
And btw, very few will get access to the scripting module.

Just curious.
Could you briefly explain the scripting module and the access problem?

Thanks

Mehdi_T · Post by **Mehdi_T** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:19 pm

Counterparts/ Astroman.
Sure that's normal. hard times for everyone. Considering Astroman, I would prefer that he gets a new rope. Laurent, who is making a manual for me, lives in the alps and he certainly does not want to hear people falling screaming "damn plugiiiiiiin, i should have bought a new roooooope"

k, gonna get a life now, see you later

.

roberflas · Post by **roberflas** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:59 pm

Hi all, I think that SDK release for free, it's a good thing to this platform, only take a look that happens with VST platform, Ok it's certain that not all plugs developed to VST are good than most people wanted but this fact contribute to expand users to VST. In other hand I only buy devices that I can use in professional works, Optimaster 2448 and 3264 mixers, Vinco, Leveldevil, Masterverbpro, of course The Amazing P100 reverb (I hope use A100 soon), DaDev compressors, Etc. I wasted my money only if obtain comercial use of this devices because I own a study. there is a lot of synths and other devices for free or to pay for it that I don't use but other people can find interesting this is "The great thing" to all of us The users.
I want to animate all developers to continue working on this platform and pressing to creamware to get support in all ways possible. Thank you

Post by **Guest** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:09 pm

CW needs faster hardware..

Software/plugins available are good but it's the limited processing power that lets it down (imo). I always see people on various sites complaining about the lack of processing power and the high cost of the boards. A complete new PC system is more versatile and cheaper than a pulsar2 board, that's the cutting point for alot of people. Just check out whats kicking around on the native side and most people would wonder why bother with CW gear? It's not very economical for the majority of people.

I personally have stopped buying any CW stuff until they get some new faster hardware.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:39 pm

to my mind, that sounds kinda asinine. those who complain about the price have no idea what real gear costs. further, cwa cards augment ANY native solution, making it more efficient, user friendly, professional sounding, and powerful. it's not either/or, but quite obviously BOTH. this is a unique product, there is no competition. we'd always like more, but the package COULD be pricier......(glad it ain't)