Polish soldiers WW2 waiting for rehabilitation by Allies

Post by **hubird** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:11 pm

I guess you've once heard of the Battle of Arnheim, documented in the film 'A bridge too far'?

The Allies suffered a big defeat trying to cross the very stategical Rhine river.
The reason for the defeat and the loss of many men was a serious underestimation of the German forces ánd their (German) military insight, though the defeat was predicted by some generals.

In fact this specific historical disaster is seen as the reason that the war took another 7 or 8 months.
Holland beneath the two big rivers was liberated during august '44, the rest of it had to face the terrible 'hunger winter', and the military advance to Berlin got stopped.
Bombings on Berlin and other cities were needed to force the nazis to surrender.

Anyway, it were the Polish paratroops that were accused by British generals to be the reason for the defeat.
The polish general got ignominious dismissal, and died forgotten in 1967 as a factory worker, at an hartattack.
His men, amongst many of them died before having fired once, hanging at their parachutes, never got any admission for their bravor, and got ignored in the annals.

Ok, so far so history.
As it is 60 years ago now, and not many eye witnesses are left now, there's much attention to those days on television.

One thing is getting revealed after all those years.
That time the Polish regiment in fact saved hundreds of British soldiers, because the nazis were forced to replace 5 batillons toward the Polish soldiers.
The polish soldiers fight to death, and many died, trying to cross the Rhine.
It must have been a nightmare.

To cover up the serious mistakes of the Allies, i.c. the British military leaders (ultimately Wesmontgomery), the Polish regiment was blamed for their -British- faults, and the Dutch politicians...well, they stayed in leage with the British leadership as real cowards, up to today.

(though our queen Juliana at the time, with a heart in the right place, tried to get rehabilitation for the Polish soldiers for two times).
There's not one official war monument for the polish soldiers

Historical reseach however has undoubtly made very clear that the treatment of the polish soldiers is based on a big and dirty lie.
Politicions can't deny it anymore, it's just sad that it had to take so long before they admit.

There is a chance that the polish general and his men - to some degree - will get the rehabiltation they deserve, at least to please the remaining relatives.

I thought I bring this in here, to please our polish members, and because that battle is a famous one, known by some or maybe many of us.

You see, there's a serious part in me

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-09-14 19:10 ]

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:02 pm

- "Hi, I'm a Polish paratrooper and Hubird is my very serious pal."

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:48 pm

Thanks Huub for your kind words. However don't know if we need apologise each other. We are too young to take the blame for anything WW2 related.

I'm Polish and I know my life would have been be completly (with a stress on completly) different if the mid 40s polititians cuted Europe to other pieces... I know there are unfair words about our soldiers who fought for our independence and we were all just f***ed by polititians. There is a great and famous story about our pilots they took theie part in the battle for England (the 303 division) - we were tought about the bravery of the pilots while I saw the film "Battle for England" (American?) where our pilots were shown as a pack of idiots not knowing their work...

Ok, I shouldn't write it all but I did... I know there were many unfair words, acts during and after the war which were caused by nazi/stalin/allies games. We (Poles)''ve lost much on it but probably other countries, too.

Sorry for the bitter words, don't take them to serious...

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:48 pm

On 2004-09-14 17:02, blazesboylan wrote:
- "Hi, I'm a Polish paratrooper and Hubird is my very serious pal."

Post by **hubird** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:58 pm

@both

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:08 pm

Sir Sam, regarding popular media portrayals of WWII, I suspect there's been much more propaganda since "we won The War" than there was during. The whole flag-waving trend isn't limited to American movies. It's in all the western books and newspaper articles about WWII as well. Britain has only recently started acknowledging the importance of Polish mathematicians in cracking the Enigma code -- another area where the Poles have been ignored in the history books.

But the flag-waving really scares me. We Canadians are quite smug about the work we did "liberating" the Netherlands. I don't deny that conditions in Holland in the 40s were stifling, and that I can't offer any viable alternative to helping the Dutch fight their way out of oppression like that. But I still can't help but wonder: why are we so proud of being involved in a war that killed 61 million souls?

That kind of national pride scares me.

Sorry for being gloomy. Now it's time to go enjoy a nicer kind of national pride. L'hockey!

Cheers,

Johann

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:52 pm

I like hokey. To be honest, I don't know what's the state of our national team (what position, what group) but there was a time (mid 80s?) that our team was in between the 2 groups - too good for the 2nd group and too bad for the first (for several years we were once in the 1st and once in the second group) - it was so annoying I stopped being interested in it. Additionaly the only hokey stadium in my hometown was once closed for rebuild (1980) and it was never ever opened (no mon).

But I like ice skating very much! And my son, too

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:23 pm

I've read quite a bit on this period - Chestor Wilmont's account among others - and have never heard the Poles accused of poor performance. In the accounts I've read they are always talked about with admiration.

What's the source for this ?

Post by **hubird** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:52 pm

@ Spirit
in a few days after the battle the british officers/generals send a letter to the Allies authorities asking for punishing the polish general by dismiss.
I saw that original letter on national television last night, it speaks about braveless fighting of the soldiers, and they blamed the Polish soldiers for the defeat.

Also the documentary showed an interview with the grandson of the polish general (I forgot his name).
He was very glad with every inch of rehabilitation of his granddad, his ashes are in Poland now.

Also there was a rather dramatic interview with prince Bernhard, the (german born) husband of late queen Juliana, he's 93 years old now, but mentally 100% sane.

He said the Duch government should posthume rehabilitate the general , with a medallon (this has a certain political state), which is already refused by minister Kamp today... (!).

This for sure will lead to political complications these days, because prince Bernhard is extremely identified with the dutch military liberation history, admired by all old military circles, still having political influences in our society.
However it's the government which is politically responsible for his words, theoretically the government could fall if he's shouting too loud.

Another detail is the fact that the polish regiment was writtenly promised to get hold behind untill the actual liberalisation of Poland would start.
The Allies military top then forced the polish general to throw his men into the battle, to save the british battallions which were almost ready to die near Arnheim, because the Germans were expecting the attack exactly there.
The polish men accepted bravely the order, and tried to join the british soldiers.
They lost men as flies, but kept the germans busy in a way that the british men could escape and draw back to the southborder of the Rhine.

Those documents with the promisses and the new orders are shown on telly, so...

I hope you can find additive information which support these findings

cheers.

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-09-14 22:43 ]

Post by **hubird** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:57 am

damn, sorry if I'm getting boring, but I've read some new information about the disastrous operation of the polish soldiers.
Read this:
While getting dropped from the planes they got fired not alone by the nazi germans but also by the British soldiers, because they misinterpreted the deviating uniforms of the Poles...
Despite that the Poles were able to save most of them.

So the battle was already lost before the Poles got dropped, the general himself predicted havy losses amongst his men who were specifically trained to get dropped in Poland, he bravely did what them was ordered, his men got fired by both sides, despite they saved many Britts, and yet they got blamed for the defeat of operation Market garden,

You can imagine the feelings of the polish general - Spirit, his name was Sosabowski

- when he got fired (yeah, fired..., geez).
I know where that hart attack of him has come from, that's for sure.

Well, it's history sice 60 years, but I hate dirty politics, specially when they are payed by ordinary people, who risked and gave their lifes.

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-09-15 12:57 ]

Post by **garyb** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:19 pm

the leaders almost never risk anything, personally.

wavelength · Post by **wavelength** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:10 pm

war is always about young poor men dying for old rich men.

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:12 pm

Gen. Sosabowski was decorated with the most important Polish decoration: Virtuti Militari. It was for the September '39 Warsaw defense.

Additionaly, he made his first parachute jump at the age of 49!!! It was after forming the mentioned Polish special squad.

He died in 1967 in England. He was a plain worker at an electric engine factory for his last 19 years. It was because he was a man of honour and he wouldn't want to owe anything to people they betrayed him. Why didn't he return to Poland you may say... He would have ended in a prison for his non comunist past...

_________________

Sir samplaire scopernicus

[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2004-09-15 17:17 ]

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:18 pm

On 2004-09-15 17:10, wavelength wrote:
war is always about young poor men dying for old rich men.

Farenheit 9 11? I've seen the film. Though I'm aware it is one side oriented I was shocked...

_________________

Sir samplaire scopernicus

[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2004-09-15 17:20 ]

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:29 pm

On 2004-09-15 17:10, wavelength wrote:
war is always about young poor men dying for old rich men.

In the age of democracy it's also about comfortable middle class voters debating who to invade next. Sudan anyone?

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:00 pm

On 2004-09-15 18:29, blazesboylan wrote:
On 2004-09-15 17:10, wavelength wrote:
war is always about young poor men dying for old rich men.
In the age of democracy it's also about comfortable middle class voters debating who to invade next. Sudan anyone?

To both of these posts:

In ages when older rich men fought in frontline - as they did in many ancient and middle ages campaigns - there was no diminuation of war. This is more a glib catch phrase than a profound truth.

As for the Polish paratroopers getting fired on by the British - well, that happens in most modern wars. Extremely sad (as is war itself), but an inevitable consequence of the 'fog of war'.

In Sudan there seems a good possibility that certain segments of the population are being killed in large numbers. I haven't been there, I don't know the truth. But if the 'middle class' can't debate a possible rescue in terms of a 'just war', then who will ? Perhaps 'rich old men' would be better than the 'middle class' ?

Maybe we western middle class males should just shutup and then, in a year or two, 'tut tut' at the horrors inflicted by man - just as we did for Rwanda ?

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:12 pm

In ages when older rich men fought in frontline - as they did in many ancient and middle ages campaigns - there was no diminuation of war. This is more a glib catch phrase than a profound truth.

I think it's more than a platitude -- it is true, as far as I can tell, that all soldiers on the frontline are young and poor, while the Bushes, Clintons, Osamas, et al. sit back and call the shots. It may not be profound, but it seems to me to be true.

In Sudan there seems a good possibility that certain segments of the population are being killed in large numbers.
I believe so too. When aid agencies report genocide I'm inclined to believe them.

(I'm not so quick to buy into politicians' assertions. There is a great deal of doubt at the moment as to what actually happened in Kosovo, for example.)

But if the 'middle class' can't debate a possible rescue in terms of a 'just war', then who will ?
Why does the middle class always resort to debating regime changes and "just wars" in foreign countries?

The strangest phenomenon I have seen was Afghanistan. I was yelled at by people who insisted that the Taliban should be ousted because of the harsh conditions they placed on women. One advocate actually had the gall to email me a petition against bombing Afghanistan in October 2001, only a few months after trying to convince me that the Taliban should be forced out.

The problem as I see it is not that the middle class debates issues. The problem is that the middle class resorts to knee-jerk reactions with easy formulaic conclusions.

Add to that the misinformation being spread (the word janjaweed has been universally mis-applied, for example -- it means simply "criminal") -- and the situation is, IMHO, a bunch of armchair imperialists who like to sit around discussing where to send the God-blessed missionaries next.

Add to that the fact that every serious debate is over foreign affairs, and I can't help being rather bored with middle class debates. There are many many many problems here at home in Canada. Yet the biggest issues on the homefront are silly ones -- marijuana legalization and gay marriages.

Maybe we western middle class males should just shutup and then, in a year or two, 'tut tut' at the horrors inflicted by man - just as we did for Rwanda ?

Maybe. Or maybe we should send in troops, kill a few thousand Africans and bomb a few political buildings (with zero collateral damage, of course), and hope for the best.

Never mind that we'd be escalating the war. As long as it warms the cockles of our hearts, and we get some photo ops of soldiers being hugged by happily saved refugees, the world will be a warm fuzzy place once again.

There is, of course, no middle ground. We either fight or do nothing!

OK, flame away.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:01 pm

On 2004-09-15 21:12, blazesboylan wrote:
it is true, as far as I can tell, that all soldiers on the frontline are young and poor, while the Bushes, Clintons, Osamas, et al. sit back and call the shots.

Well of course more experienced people are going to lead the campaigns. That usually means older. And if they've shown a real talent for command and leadership they may well have some money too.

As for the troops, in most western nations they are volunteers. To state that they're also mainly poor is questionable but also largely irrelevant. There are many other career choices available.

It is the press-ganged child armies of Africa that might better deserve some scrutiny.

Or maybe we should send in troops, kill a few thousand Africans and bomb a few political buildings (with zero collateral damage, of course), and hope for the best.
Never mind that we'd be escalating the war. As long as it warms the cockles of our hearts, and we get some photo ops of soldiers being hugged by happily saved refugees, the world will be a warm fuzzy place once again.

What breathtaking cynicism. You sound like jaded middle-class westerner (

).

I agree that in some cases what you describe may be close to the truth. But what's missing from your comments is what alternatives you feel are superior ?

Isolationism is the closest I can discern from your comments. But while isolationism would have avoided the Vietnam War and the War in Iraq, it might also have led to a Nazi victory in Europe.

Very interested in your alternative action scenarios.

( Oh dear is this a middle class debate now ?

)

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:54 am

Gaaaaaaa! PlanetZ ate my post.

*Sigh*. I'm going to bed. I'll be back to talk about nihilism sometime soon...

Cheers,

Johann

[ This Message was edited by: blazesboylan on 2004-09-16 05:56 ]

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:00 am

Huub,
there was no reason for brits to like Sosabowski, when he was the one, who said it won't work before the operation.
(i really liked Gene Hackman playing him

)
also remember, that Market-Garden was parallel in time with bloodbath of Warsaw uprising.
there was almost open mutiny among polish paratroopers that wanted to be dropped over Warsaw.