Drum devices

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:58 am

Things are getting hot in here !

Just goes to show that it IS a subject where lots of people feel concerned.

I think that whatever John accomplish, it's gonna be a hit. The subject itself is too hot

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:58 am

oki..

Spirit, connecting modules to get greater functionallity is what the whole modular thing is about. [edit] What stops you from making a MIDI track in Fruity and using its nnn steps sequencer to drive SFP drum devices?

John, thanks for asking about

My personal view on a drum kit: no need to insert a sequencer, I have my own. No need to insert effects, as it will be hard to put all my effects inside one device. I'll put my own behind the drum machine, which preferably has different outputs for each drum sound, a la EDS8i. Do you have fast envelopes and an osc that properly retriggers? These are essential for good drum devices.
So something as simple as EDS8i would be great, provided it has faster envelopes and an osc that retriggers properly.

Cheers

_________________
More has been done with less.

[ This Message was edited by: at0m|c on 2004-06-04 04:53 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:38 am

I do seem to agree with Spirit, if the device were to be step sequencer based.(big buttons for easy control etc.) But considering John Bowen's idea on concentrating in sound generation first, I think it's a good idea to keep things simple and focused. Envelopes and osc retrigger. Those 2 seem to be the essential things that we need for now.

I also recall that Plasma had some sort of limiter/compressor of some sort that was built in, but hidden. (user can't touch or see it) I'm just guessing it's a limiter/compressor, but its dynamics would be different from time to time, which did create an interesting character. So, something "hidden" like that may be just simple fun.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:44 am

All of which just goes to show the huge range of possible functionality.

It ranges from a basic, but well done, sound source all the way up to an integrated device with step sequencer and effects - and everything in between.

Myself, I like the grid for drums like Reason, Microtonic, Orion or FL Studio. Favourite is FL Studio where you set it for whatever you like: 16, 24, 32

...

I also like to be able to program the full sound in one location. That way a particularly nice snare with a little flam, or a touch of flange, or a certain EQ, or a cascading delay with filter effects, is ready for me to use somewhere else.

Don't know about other people, but I have a few drum sounds (& basic foundation loops) which I use quite often, then I make the rest up to suit the song...

Others obviously prefer just to flow a basic sound through the full mixing & processing rig to get the final effect.

Seems to me that a decision on this aspect of the device is the essential question: Is it going to be a "raw" source, or is it going to have a largely finished "produced" sound ?

Then perhaps will it just be a single sound source like KickMe or the Wavelength DrumVox, or incorporate multiple sounds like the old EDSi?

For me, if there's no grid, then it may as well be a single source, a complete "drum synthesiser" perhaps with multiple filters, LFOs etc

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:56 am

Myself, I like the grid for drums like Reason, Microtonic, Orion or FL Studio. Favourite is FL Studio where you set it for whatever you like: 16, 24, 32 , 64 or whatever (Atomic FYI that's what I use). But that seems to be not in consideration for now ...

I personally would want a device that did that tho.. With finished produced sound. So, 1 vote from me. Actually, if you can make a full fledged device with seq and insert slots, it's easy to work it down to a raw sound source. (perhaps as a different device) I guess this clearly draws the line between a sound module and a drum box.

Alice · Post by **Alice** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:42 pm

I'm new to this forum and I'm new to Pulsar. I don't know all the correct terms so I'll say it like I know and hope that you take this seriously.

The snare should have resonance - to represent being hit from the center to the edge pitch - for tight/loose skin and subtle pitch changes when you hit the snare harder
Depth - for size of snare
Amount of snap to represent hit strength and different beaters
Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Hats should have ring to them and not just be tuned noise through a filter. The noise the do have should sparkle. Controlable snap from hard to none. When you go from open hat to closed hat open hat sound should cut off. Attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Cymbals also should ring with noise contol to simulate rivets. Pitch to represent size. With snap from hard to none. Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times.

All should have EQ

If this drum were to be a drum oscillator module for the ModIII then I would like all the controls to have have a modulation input to allow control for those subtle changes, like you never hit the snare in the same place in a row and the sound is slightly different with more ring or hit slightly harder or stick held on the skin for slightly longer; and also for warped effects. Maybe some of the controls could be modulated anyway if it were a Device.

Anyway thats my thoughts I hope you could follow my meaning.

Alice

[ This Message was edited by: Alice on 2004-06-05 22:45 ]

wavelength · Post by **wavelength** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:27 am

On 2004-06-05 22:42, Alice wrote:
I'm new to this forum and I'm new to Pulsar. I don't know all the correct terms so I'll say it like I know and hope that you take this seriously.

The snare should have resonance - to represent being hit from the center to the edge pitch - for tight/loose skin and subtle pitch changes when you hit the snare harder
Depth - for size of snare
Amount of snap to represent hit strength and different beaters
Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Hats should have ring to them and not just be tuned noise through a filter. The noise the do have should sparkle. Controlable snap from hard to none. When you go from open hat to closed hat open hat sound should cut off. Attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Cymbals also should ring with noise contol to simulate rivets. Pitch to represent size. With snap from hard to none. Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times.

All should have EQ

If this drum were to be a drum oscillator module for the ModIII then I would like all the controls to have have a modulation input to allow control for those subtle changes, like you never hit the snare in the same place in a row and the sound is slightly different with more ring or hit slightly harder or stick held on the skin for slightly longer; and also for warped effects. Maybe some of the controls could be modulated anyway if it were a Device.

Anyway thats my thoughts I hope you could follow my meaning.

Alice

[ This Message was edited by: Alice on 2004-06-05 22:45 ]

... that is only if one is trying to achieve an acoustic drum result. Something like my Plasma (and drumVOX) was always intended to make very electronic sounding percussion timbres, certainly nothing acoustic. To generate an acoustic sounding drum timbre, why not just use very good samples with multiple layers that can be triggered by velocity? Otherwise, some sort of physical model would have to be created. (or one could just record *gasp* real drums... hehehe)

- Stephen

http://www.track0.com/wavelength/

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:28 am

On 2004-06-05 22:42, Alice wrote:
(a lot of things).....

i don't know much about drums but Alice's suggestions sounded brilliant to me ( sounded like something i would want to try out at least

- this is not a critic to other ppl devs..). there's a lot to do in comparison to the modular II/III drums (punch, warmth, playability, edition areas especially)... a simple 5/6 drum sound generators would be something i'd use everyday (there's the dsp issue but...). i use a lot of samples, but it still good to have something very editable/original (i don't have a great vsti sampler neither and STS doesn't allow "open hat closes when closed hat is triggered" for example, nor the filters are great for drums - you can do a lot but not what could be better). (my 2 cents though...) .

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-06-06 08:04 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:29 am

STS doesn't allow "open hat closes when closed hat is triggered" for example, nor the filters are great for drums

Not true at all... STS from STS3000 to STS5000 permit auto cancelling of sound for exactly that purpose. And, filter in STS5000 are simply unbeatable compared to any other sampler, be it vsti or hardware.

Sorry to say this this way, but, really, from you, it's surprising...

[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2004-06-06 08:30 ]

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:56 am

is it?? how do you this? explain, so i'll be surprised too

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:02 am

you also got me wrong, i didn't say the filters are bad, they are just not enough for me for drums and it still can be improved...

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:05 am

1st- load a drumkit, for example the one that is one the creamware best service CD

2nd, go in keygroup, and select the keygroup containing the open hihat sound, look in the global panel from the keygroup window

3rd, look at the muteGroup option

You assign a mute group to each sample that should mute mutually.

You can create many groups if you need to

That's it

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:06 am

well thanks for explaining, it's better than fighting : who said i knew it all.
i'll try that next time, but still interested by a "just load and play" thing...

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-06-06 09:07 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:06 am

Yep, then, your statement about filter is true... Everything can be improved...Always

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:08 am

On 2004-06-06 09:06, spacef wrote:
still interested by a "just load and play" thing...

Héhé, me too

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:09 pm

Inspired by an old reaktor ensemble ( newscool ) that could produce a lot of different sounds, what I really dream about is :

4 or 5 oscillators ( yes !! ) for each choice of various waveforms.

For each oscillator ( in disorder )

AHD level envelopes - sample accurate and ranges related to percussive sounds thus short to have accurate controls moves ... also slopes " shaping "

Same kind of envelope for pitch + amount of it.

Pitch setting

Amount of FM and ringmod sent to the others oscillators via a matrix for example, I favor faders !

Level ( of a given oscillator ) to cook various mixes of the oscillators.

Drive, clipper, bitcrushing, EQs, filters ... etc are more than welcome !

Those are top of my head ... if more ideas pop up ...

I'am prepared to PAY for such a heavy duty device !!

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:30 pm

I was thinking about the AHD pitch envelope ... what about given pitch targets for both hold and decay stages ( instead of positive unipolar ) so that you can have more combinations : pitch starts at pitch set for this oscillator goes to " hold " pitch then heads to " decay " final pitch.

I vote yes !!

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:33 pm

Perhaps a good bpm-sync LFO-to-pitch with various waveforms could do this job just as well ?

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:05 pm

Wow!

Certainly a LOT more response to this than I expected!!

Question - has anyone using the Modular tried doing these specific types of AHD envelopes (where there's different pitch 'targets' for the hold and decay, or whatever else you want) by using the MultiStage Envelope? This seems capable of it.
Of course, there is the problem with that envelope displaying the correct graphics per preset - "sometimes it do, sometimes it don't"

I've set up something using the AHDs, and other bits and pieces, that seem to give a nice punch to the kick, but the phase lock available to me in the Scope atoms isn't adding a whole lot to it (at least, not as I expected it would). I know Assaf has pioneered the sample accurate, phase locked kick drum, which I don't have here...must do a lot more research (or pay Assaf a license!).

All these requests are great - there's a lot to do to satisfy them, and I'd love to - but I'm starting to think it might be more than I can achieve at this time. Certainly, it's good to get these ideas out there and flowing, no matter who builds this.

Any design I do at this point will have to be much simpler...perhaps in the future we can expect the 'super duper drum computer' from Adern or someone new in the forthcoming SDK community.

cheers,

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:59 pm

Well, let's point the next keen developer at this thread and see if they start taking steps backward too ...