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I loved the French Canadians when I was there......about 20 years ago. But then, as now the whole seccessionist argument for Quebec was a bit of a joke.......to everybody but Quebec..... sorry Paul.

The rest of Canada needs you for your personality, love of life, good looks etc. Quebec needs the Canadian economy for it's money. Isn't that a fair trade?

Agreed. As a French-Canadian, and having lived 23 years in Quebec City, I'm not really in favor of Quebec's independance. It doesn't really make sense anymore, at least not for my generation. I don't feel oppressed, I can get any job I want in the Government if that's what I want, the girls are really pretty here and there's poutine outside of Quebec now. I love not having to cross borders to go to Ontario or the West Coast, etc. I find the Canada-US border pretty shitty in fact, having lots of friend in the US (altho to be honest, going to the US has always been great, even after 9/11, it's coming back to Canada that was always a bit shittier =P.)

It would also be financial suicide, as Ontario's and Quebec's economy are way too much interdependant. Go check what happened to Russia and Ukraine when USSR broke up, for a good study in the matter. It would also separate alot of families, who would now have to cross a border to see each other.

And all for what? We already have really high living standards, separating would probably lower these, as forming and running a country will cost shitloads of money and will eat alot of people's time, as we'd have to re-negociate tons of treaties, establish ties and embassies, get money stuff setup and printed, build an army (ahaha the poutine brigade!!!), etc. Personally, I simply do not see it happening. It would also make half the province pissed off at the other half (both referendums were pretty close to 50% - 50%,) and probably wouln't want to have anything to do with it. This would create alot of tension that really wouldn't do any one any good.

I don't feel particularly isolated right now, and have even been teaching a bunch of Americans the merit of Poutine. Now, if you want to get isolated, separating would be a pretty good idea. Canada would just get pissed off at us, and who else is going to come and help us if the US would, says, purely hypothetically, would find interesting to add all that water and wood (and pretty girls) to its repertoire? I don't think France would help us this time, any more than they helped us the first time (sorry to all French people reading this, I love France, I really do! Part of myself is still walking in Paris, say hi if you see me, and you also have some pretty pretty girls, so it's all good and ok.) Given the current, hum, "world affairs" atmosphere, whatwith all the terrorist drumming propanganda machine running at full speed, I really doubt pushing for independance would bring anything good to anyone.

Anyway, this is just my current perspective, subject to ondulations and variations as things progress. Of course, like I mentionned, I'm from a younger generation, so I've seemed to have missed alot of what made independance a desirable solution, but it just seems like the Revolution Tranquille worked to me. I love the dual-culture thing in Montreal and being able to switch between english and french continually. All the anglophones I know in Montreal *insist* talking to me in French, and I speak to them in English, it's funny. I find both cultures can benefit from each other. Admittedly Ottawa isn't the best place to get service in french (altho it's happened to me,) but I know they like us there, as the bars in Hull (other side of the river from Ottawa for the non-Canadian readers) close later, the beer is nicer + gets sold later, and the girls are prettier! =P

The whole sponsorship scandal revolves around the canadian campaign to keep us in Canada.
Also, canadian citizenships were given before their time in order to get immigrants living in Quebec to the right to vote against the last secessionist referendum.

Symbiote, you have the exact same arguments I had when I voted NO at the very first referendum and you may be right. But it's time we stand as a people here and stop depending on Canada perequation funds to get our socal programs off the ground.

I don't think we're going to settle this on a soundcard forum anyways

So what sort of things do you Canadians get up to on Canada Day?

Royston

vive le.... Vive le Québec Liiiibre!!!!!

we eat like pigs, drink like there won't be any tomorrow and passout

Sounds like my typical weekday...

On 2005-07-03 18:26, emzee wrote:
... the whole seccessionist argument for Quebec was a bit of a joke.......to everybody but Quebec..... sorry Paul.

That's what I've always found too. No one takes it seriously. The whole thing is like some Monty Python idea.

edit: In my defence I'd like to point out that my much revered ancestors were all French



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2005-07-04 09:42 ]</font>

thought you evolutionated from rabits...

Even going for gay marriage..... did that get passed? I see Spain is celebrating........well, not the die hard staunch Catholics......

Oh, yeah, I never meant to solve anything, just ramble aimlessly as is my habit =P. My take on it, perequation-wise, is that, as usual, people would under-budget what setting up and running a country would cost, and we'd end up with roughly the same amount of money to get the social programs off the ground, with the added bonus of tensions/hatred, frontiers, and probably more serious pre-occupations than just social programs =P. I simply can't see how this could be desirable.

I mean, I really wouldn't mind moving the whole province to Europe (food is better there, sorry!), but that's going to take alot of people to dig out, and fairly big boat to move it around =P Maybe if we can steal a spaceship with some sort of continent-splicing-and-transporting-beam capabilities, then it would be an entirely different matter =P.

On 2005-07-04 13:04, hubird wrote:
thought you evolutionated from rabits...

A good proportion of us from big bad English East End criminals; the rest from post WWII immigration from (mainly) Europe.

I believe you're thinking of New Zealand and their fondness for sheep.

On 2005-07-03 22:37, symbiote wrote:
and there's poutine outside of Quebec now.

On 2005-07-04 14:08, stardust wrote:
I love Canada.... for their dialectic way of being a country.

Seriously this is much more interesting than the boring all american lifestyle.

You know, in spite of the whole Hollywood idea of "The American Dream" etc, I think there's a lot more tension in the U.S. right now than there's been in Canada for the past 100 years +. I mean the powerhouses in the States are:

- The "right" (politically / economically speaking)

- The "left" (ditto)

- Religious groups (some reporters are suggesting that they are even starting to put pressure on GWB re: global warming! -- NOT a rightwing cause...)

Spread across those groups there are little cultures all over the place -- WASPs, African Americans, Hispanic Americans, looooots of Muslims, a powerful little group of Cubans, the divide between rich and poor, ...

All in all I'd say the U.S.A. is a pretty diverse place!


Anyway sorry for being grumpy earlier, I just saw Rod's post and it made me happy, and then to read all the discussion of secession made me kind of sad... But I spend most of my life bitching about how stupid Canadian politics is, how stupid Canadian voters are, how lacking Canadian culture is, and how ugly the girls are outside of Quebec (kidding! ). To borrow a Jack Nicholson line, this country needs an enema. But I think *all* of us need a change, not just Quebec. We need to stop treating the future like it's some guaranteed investment certificate. IMHO we need to be spending less money on ****ing SUVs and highways and sports stadiums and life support for geriatric basket cases, and start pouring our money into our next-of-kin. Education, employment insurance, environmental cleanup and yes, all of the cultural investments that only Quebec ever seemed interested in pursuing -- all of us need to dig into our own pockets right *now* to make sure our kids enjoy good lives and this country doesn't end up in another Great Depression with 15% jobless rates and young people starving.

I completely understand being pissed off with the Canadian status quo. Some of my reasons may be at odds with the Quebec secessionists' -- but I suspect we share a lot of ground. And there are a lot of people out there in the rest of the country who share our desires for a better (less stupid) political, economic and cultural nation to live in. But I really hope that those of us who don't see our political, economic and cultural futures as automatic and pre-programmed or inevitable will band together and get this damned country and its damned sheep-like citizens onto a sensible path, before we all stumble off lost in different directions or end up all together in a heap at the bottom of a cliff.

$35! Sorry for boring y'all

Johann

On 2005-07-05 00:53, blazesboylan wrote:

this country needs an enema

I see endless squabbles about where the tube goes...

On 2005-07-04 09:39, Spirit wrote:

On 2005-07-03 18:26, emzee wrote:
... the whole seccessionist argument for Quebec was a bit of a joke.......to everybody but Quebec..... sorry Paul.

That's what I've always found too. No one takes it seriously. The whole thing is like some Monty Python idea.

edit: In my defence I'd like to point out that my much revered ancestors were all French

The news source may be the reason why the rest of the world sees Quebec as bunch of idiotic dreamers. Remember the song "Dirty laundry" by Don Henley? Never will a teletype machine say that secession is a good thing or turn a political debate into something constructive.

Separatists may be idiotic dreamers but the rest of the world should read the french-canadian point of view and not only what is spewed out by United Press before passing judgement.

Yeah, it's far from an idiotic dream, and even if I don't think it's the best solution right now, you can be sure the rest of Canada take it seriously =P

Separation or independence means complete detachment.

Like when you separate an arm from a body. The body will be hurt and be upset and try to fight it but at the end the body gives up and accommodate.

The severed body part then must be buried or cremated as the arm can’t simply be kept on live support or a freezer. And the body goes on to forget the arm.

Or like a child that decided to rebel and leave home permanently and want nothing to do with his parents. Divorce his parents. So the kid wants nothing to do with the parents but want to be able to come home when he feels in danger or if he is in trouble or got no money, he eats the food, sleeps in his old bed, take money, but still want his parents not to tell him anything,

That is how I see Separation of Quebec. Those separatists either separate with the complete meaning of the word or stay attached to the rest of the Canadian body. Regardless whether the body is completely fit or not. at least it is breathing and it is better off than any capable bodies in this world.

to me separation simply means

1. Quebec gets its own monetary system going and don’t tie it up to the Canadian dollar/Economy

2. Give up the Canadian citizenship and issue Quebecois citizenship with new Quebecois Passport. No dual citizenship because we are pissed and because you wanted not be part of Canada.

3. Stop at customs every time you decided to take a drive down to Hull or the rest of Canada.
4. Don’t ask the federal gov’t for AID.

If separation takes place I can see ½ of the 6 million People living in Quebec end up in Ontario and the rest of Canada in matter of hours.
100% of immigrants will move then ½ of the rest of Quebecois will move to stay Canadians
Then in couple of years I see Quebec become the 51st state.

I think that is why the rest of Canada can’t understand the separatists "raison" for separation.

You are almost right antar, except your example and rhetoric doesn't take into account the fact that the arm was *forced* to be part of the body in the first place, which changes things a fair bit. For a conquered people, you'll have to admit that we are pretty laid-back about it, and have managed to preserve our culture from assimilation

Which is why I'm kind of against separation right now, as at this point the assimilation is going the other way (i.e. I can get poutine in Ontario!), and most studies show that the rest of Canada's values are alot closer to ours (i.e. civil liberties) than with the US's conservative freaks, hence just about everyone involved in Canada would prefer to stay in their current situation instead of ending up as a US state. Or, in other words, people will be open to negociations, on both sides.

Also, your 50% of people leaving Quebec is grossly exagerated, as people will definitely prefer to stay on the same side of the frontier as their family, and there might be some immigration of people who are actually into the idea of building a country, and/or Franco-Canadians coming back to live here. It's all purely spectulative at this point.

Also, given that we're pretty much half the heart of Canada, if we leave, the rest of Canada will be just as fucked as we are, economically and geographically. I suspect some of the less rich provinces, like New Brunswick, PEI and Newfoundland will end up as US states faster than we would, especially since the US would then rake in all that coastal area. Given the complete economic interdependance of Quebec and Ontario as this point, even if the rest of Canada is "pissed" at us, it's not like they'll have much of a choice to negociate a smooth transition, as otherwise they'll fall with us.

As for asking the Federal Gov for aid, we currently give them more money than we get back, hence we'd actually have more (but we'd spend alot more to get currency and treaties and embassies and stuff up and running, so probably end up with roughly the same for the first 10-20 years needed to get the country up and running.) I'm not personally against the idea of forwarding money to other provinces in needs, if our needs are covered, but the main problem at this point is that money stays clogged in Ottawa and doesn't really do any province any good. Ontario whines about this issue also, so it's not a purely Quebec-centric problem.

I also really doubt Quebec would agree to becoming part of the US, and if they try to force us, well, I can only have pity for the poor Alabama teenager who will be ordered to come and hunt me down in 3-4 feet of snow and temperatures of -30C. As much as I hate cold and winter, as much I am perfectly able to survive comfortably in its extreme conditions if the need arise, and I'm not the only one. Think Russia-Afghanistan with snow, ice and polar bears. Given how "well" the US is faring right now in Irak, I'll let you imagine who they'd do over here. And anyway, we can just stop selling them electricity, and most of the east coast will be shut down =P =P

I agree,

that is why Quebec or other provinces should not think of breaking Canada up everytime they have beef with the federal gvernment.

Quebec can stay part of the body or the heart of the body and get what it wants from Ottawa via diplomacy without keep holding referendums or threatning with seperation.

Seperation like you said will F**k Canada as a whole. and the part is always weaker then the whole. This won't allow the USA to swallow this great country piece by piece or tap into our great resources.

the USA is like the mighty sharc from JAWS once it smells the first drop of blood it will attack. I mean look what they called us for simply taking a neutral position on their invasion of IRAQ. We became their public enemy #1. and we are their neighbour for god's sake.

Politicians in the USA already said Quebec is a matter of time the 51th state and other will follow. No wonder Howerd Sten and many others said Canada is the 51th state by Canadian don't know it yet.

I am sure the people of quebec are smarter than having this great nation fell in the hands of its neighbour and its deranged way of running the world. Then and only then we deserve to be called Canuckostanies.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-07-06 12:58 ]</font>

Edit, this was posted before Antar's above reply

Antar,
You have demonstrated perfectly he lack of understanding between Quebec and the rest of Canada by reacting the way you did.

This "shape up or ship out" attitude is exactly what we don't need in Canada. We need to help each other out as Symbiote pointed out(helping provinces in need). Instead, we get anti-Quebec lip. I can certainly see a lot of businesses moving out of Quebec if there were a separation bringing with them a part of the population, but 50%???

One thing has not been mentioned throughout this debate. The monetary system would NOT change because one of the important points the Parti Québécois has brought up is that Quebec would share the canadian dollar soas not to devaluate it to nothing. The economic growth of Canada is too tightly involved with Quebec's growth and it should not be a big problem just to keep contracts as they are. I believe it would be just a question of reformulation. Mind you, governments love to make things complicated so this would drag on and on no doubt...

Passports to cross the bridge to Ottawa... Give me a break, Antar. Now you're just being ludicrous.

Read a bit more about this part of the country's history and you'll see that we are a heck of a lot more tame than you think, as Symbiote also pointed out.

Oh! and remember, most americans don't know where Quebec is

_________________
Are we listening?..



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2005-07-06 13:01 ]</font>