OT: Drugs & Music

[eliam]

M'kay, kids, today we're gonna talk about drugs. Drugs are bad, m'kay? Cause when you do drugs, you can't tell what's right from what's the real matter, m'kay?

[Grok]

Do yoga and soft body and mind disciplines.

It is far better than drugs, and it save your health!

Sure, drugs are the quicker way for lazy persons. But they always keep you down at a point, and let you tired.

Natural and safer drugs exist in our brains. You just have to work a little to get their benefits. And it is far better

[CreepJoint]

Going to be the Devils Advocate, are drugs really all that bad compared to other stuff in life? I mean, even a carrot can kill you if you choke on i1

[astroman]

imho Ontik made it quite clear that the topic isn't about drug abuse in the newspapers sense.

I found the topic highly interesting as several of the answers reflected parts of my own experiences.
Eliam's words reminded me on an almost 'never come back' experience from using Belladonna root. After 3 hours unconcious in hospital with a 200 bpm heartbeat (Dr dunno what he's taken but it's to late anyway...) I spent a day in a kind of parallel world.
A very impressive experience for it's intensity of realism, not a single bit of doubt in that world. Everything I saw or felt was real (while acting and talking completely weird).
But the most strange thing was something had kept me from eating the whole piece of root.
I wouldn't be writing this if I had done

I've also had those great acoustic effects from cannbis and LSD, everything sounded more transparent and had a deeper impact.
But I guess it was simply my untrained ears.
Today I can hear those details well without chemical stimulation. Needles to say I stopped consuming those substances many years ago, I don't miss anything but I wouldn't condemn them either.
Imho most problems evolve from criminalising and misinformation. You can't prevent curious kids from trying something out, but it should be part of education to inform them in an way they understand.
Everyone needs some kicks in living and music and performing is certainly a good part of this.
For myself I found that a lot of experiences in sport superceeded my drug memories and I wish I had started earlier with that.
My wife

cheers, Tom

[ontik]

On 2002-08-18 19:48, astroman wrote:
imho Ontik made it quite clear that the topic isn't about drug abuse in the newspapers sense.

I don't think I could have written it better Astro.

I really hold quite an amount of contempt for the news media in western culture for the appauling manner in which they conduct themselve when referencing drugs.
I am absolutley in favour of news media taking a negative stance and on them and not promoting them. My reason for this is that the , as Eliam wrote "Drugs are nad M'kay, if you do drugs you're bad M'kay" poilicy is the most ineffective technique to combat the issue for two reasons.

1. A lot of kids like the idea of being 'bad'. You wanna be bad? Do drugs! Sorry if that sounds childishly simple but think about it.

2. And this is the zinger.... Drugs are bad! As most of us have discussed we do in fact know why this is said. But why do people continue to do them after the first try if they really are 'bad' like the media says. Because the dangers of drugs are never apparent the first time / few times you have them / until its too late. What is apparent is how good / much fun / amazing they are. In the mind of the first time user every depiction painted in the news media is all of a sudden, a LIE. Then LATER you learn how the drugs lie to you too. But then its too late...

To balance this out of course we have our hollywood idiots who glorify the issue. But they have every right to be ethically devoid too. Shit I'm no saint either.

It just really disturbs me to see how the problem is addressed in the media. I just think that all of the cards should be laid out on the table because its the only way to avoid the misinformation....

OT: Anyone know of the late Bill Hicks?? A social speaker whose medium was comedy? Hilarious, brutal, and extroadinarily accurate. (I reckon anyway) If not track him down and have a watch/listen It'll save me having to write a lot...

[eliam]

When I walk in the streets here in Montreal, I see how drugs are a plague and wreck so many people's lives, and this is unfortunate indeed... Heroin does much damage, but canabis is also a plague in its way... It gives the illusion of making people high but in the end it keeps people down and cuts them from one of the most important things in life: action! It is a claw which the sinister force puts around very powerful souls to keep their mind dull and their consciousness veiled and clouded. And I speak of what I know here, because I have smoked pot every day for many years. I don't do it anymore, and stopping has been one of the best things that I have done in many years...
Sorry not to talk about music here.

[ontik]

I agree with you completely on that Eliam. More than 4/5 of my friend have been smokers at some point myself included. I fortunately found that I was able to drop it quite easily when I decided that I was trying to get somewhere in life and that I would be better off without it. And I certainly didn't miss it when I did. It really is the most quietly evil drug of the lot because its effects are dire yet they are almost camoflauged unlike alcohol whose effects are unmissable even at a distance.

Pot gets let off the hook somewhat because it mellows people, its peaceful and not violent and people can still function on it to varying degrees.

I have a saying that 'you discover getting onto Pot and then discover getting off it' and I reckon you'll know exactly what mean by that.

But I still think the most applicable phrase for any substance (With the exception of a few IE Heroin) that adjusts the headspace is "Moderation"!!!! ANYTHING in excess is dangerous. You CAN have to much of a good thing (Jogging for example or even music if I had be awful about it) and it is the responsibility of the operator to do the moderating.

Enuff 4 now.

[garyb]

the problem is "drugs", which is a mind-set involving "cure-alls".any medicine (including those which are phsyco-active) is good for it's intended purpose.any medicine (even aspirin)is dangerous when abused.

are there substances which can affect or even improve certain types of perception?sure.

are those substances a good idea to promote?
most likely not.

should someone be experimenting with them?
weeeelllllll o.k., but do so at your own peril.

homer simpson's a pot-head.(and an insanity chili abuser)

[braincell]

Here in the united states the government actually sells alcohol in many places. It is big business, naturally they would prefer you to use a drug which brings revenue to the state rather than ones that only benefit the black market. The church is a big reason for the drug taboo as they would love to have a monopoly on mind control. If the government really wanted to help people they would develop and dispense safe recreational hallucinogenic drugs in a controlled environment. It is interesting to note that studies prove placibos work as well as prozac.

[eliam]

What makes you think that the government doesn't actually make more money by keeping illicit drugs illegal? And what if some elements in politics actually want to have people hooked on unregulated highly hazardous drug admixtures sold on the streets? I say SOME elements, not all of them, but people will have to open the box and watch what has been going on on this continent (and the whole world while we're at it!)
I believe that if people want to poison themselves with drugs, be it pot, coffee or heroin, they should not be harassed but rather helped and supported as much as possible in their purification...

[spoimala]

Braincell, I love this sentence : "The church is a big reason for the drug taboo as they would love to have a monopoly on mind control." May I quote you

To the topic, my point of view is simple and clear "music is the best drug". As I'm a performing artist and I'm used to play demanding things, I cannot imagine I could be stoned when playing. It is just impossible to play those things in drugs. (I count alcohol, smoke and coffee as drugs )

When composing... I like to make music that is worth listening even when not stoned.
I'm completely negative to all drugs in all circumstances (maybe a blunt guy :/).

[paulrmartin]

Whoever wrote "Romanticising is dangerous", you're right!

My experience is that yes, taking drugs will enhance your listening pleasure. But, after the first few times it becomes "running after the first rush". What I mean by that is that in my case, I was looking for the same feeling I had the first time I'd taken a specific substance in a specific situation. Let me tell you something: that feeling NEVER returns.

I remember going to bed after smoking a mixture of hash and cocaine(not crack or freebase) and hearing music in my head that later I found to be "Angelic Music", the kind Iazos wrote. i later spent wasted years trying to reproduce what I'd heard and never even came close.

I tend to think the same way about mind-altering drugs as Eliam does but, a guide through these journeys is definitely a necessity. After reading Carlos Castaneda's books I started taking mushrooms in a whole different light but the only thing it brought me is better preparation to not "freak out". Mushrooms brought out good humour in me, though I did make the mistake of taking some two days in a row. I remember laughing so hard while listening to "Who's afraid of the big band Monk", an old live album by Thelonious Monk. But it did not make me understand the music any better(theory, harmony).

I'm just glad I did do them and I'm glad I got out of them. I don't recommend them but I do understand those who take them.

As long as they don't become a way out I guess...

Peace, y'all!

P.S.: oh yeah, there's mescaline too

[braincell]

Everyone wants easy answers "Drugs are bad" or a minority of people say "Drugs are good". Let's not put all drugs in the same category, also let's remember moderation can be the key for some people. If someone feels that having a beer or a cup coffee or whatever in moderation helps him play I have no problem with that. If you think drugs hurt your playing you are probably right for yourself but maybe not for all people. Maybe I am a shy person and on a rare occasion I go to a bar and have a drink to make me less shy. Is this evil? I think not. My doctor told me that 1/2 a drink a day is good for me and 1 drink a day would be bad for me. It's funny but doctors (and everyone else) want a clear answer to everything. Must we reduce all questions to black and white? There are millions of shades between.

[astroman]

from my experiences with hallucinoges (not the highly toxic accident I mentioned before) there HAS been one severe impact which I can't ever revert anymore:
it ain't necessarily so...
What I sense about my sourroundings is ONE point of view, but it might as well be different, in fact there are millions of possibilities.
One could call it an extension of mind, but a kind of sincerety that was before is lost, and sometimes that's not comfortable at all.
I knew perfectly about chemistry etc of the drugs, but this came totally unexpected.
In fact it didn't turn up at once but slightly manifested itself as knowledge over times.
I'm not to complain about this personally, but it makes me think kids should really get at least some basic education on these aspects (which you don't see) as well.
Where mushrooms have a cultural backgound there are experienced people handling this.
I guess Castaneda tried to transfer some of that knowledge in his books, though I wonder if it's applicable on todays life.
But I'd like to add one point to the doctors (a bit of topic).
THEY are actively making people addicted. Not single cases, but millions and perfectly legal. Think of all those cardiac and blood pressure diseases. Before patients get the chance to improve their health by a simple changing their way of lifes, they are 'tuned' to severe drugs to force the heart to a totally unnatural operation.
Weird. Some animals are more equal.

cheers, Tom

[ontik]

I don't think doctors are off topic at all.

My society condemns me, and my family were shocked when I happily announced that I've done my share of recreational drugs. Regardless of the fact that I have continued to build a healthy and constructive life for myself (I'm sure some of you may like to argue that but its not my point). OK, so I expected that. Thats what they've been programmed to believe via the media their whole lives. They've never been close enough to make an informed judgement. Or so it would seem.

The interesting part was when I began to point out that the my mother was infact the most severe drug addict I knew. Shock, Horror!! "How can you say such things??", "You know heroin addicts in prison!" Definitely. Couldn't agree more. But my mum's been on some type of opiate based relaxant, daily, for over 30 years. Switching brands every once in a while, but its the same shit. The mear suggestion that she try and live without them, even just to see how she goes, throws her into an anxiety attack. I'm not kidding.

This conlcudes my lesson: "How to be a black sheep in 1 easy step.".....


In the late 80's a Rapper by the name of KRS One penned a line that I think fits best: "Everything is legal if the government can see you." Well, nearly anyway.....

And eliam you're right too in saying that governments may enjoy, to some degree, a certain amount of passive intoxication for the people. Any controlling body has an interest in pacifying the people. It make the job of control easier. And they'll use any means necessary too. Events, sport, law, media etc, etc, etc.

[at0m]

(...)
(Doctors) are actively making people addicted. (...) Before patients get the chance to improve their health by a simple changing their way of lifes, they are 'tuned' to severe drugs to force the heart to a totally unnatural operation.
Weird. Some animals are more equal.

I think most people who get those diseases could have foreseen the situation. If your family has a history of cardiac problems, you should take good care of your hart. I'm not going to make up guides for how to, you'll know. Cardiac and blood pressure problems are part of western Bourgondian culture. We eat, drink and smoke too much. Simple as that. If the doctor would not give you the medicine, you could be dead already. I feel very sorry for people who did not take a walk on the wild side and still become ill.

Our western culture promotes stress, by teaching us how good it could be if we squeezed more out of life. I'm infected too. You know, going on holliday being exhausted by daily life. And then, cos we only have a couple of weeks, we squeeze everything out of ourselves again. See more, do more, party more, drive faster and jump further. It's in our blood already, the doctor just tries to fix faults which are results of our excesses.

Another luxury disease which reigns ie. in Belgium, where I'm from, is depression. Depression asks for escape. In medication, legal and illegal drugs. Little temporary helpers for fatigued souls.

On the long haul, one needs character, wisdom and energy to keep dealing with the complex and ever quicker changing society we live in. We can taste of everything, but we must select well. It's up to you to deceide, or someone or something will do it for you.

I use drugs too. I've tried most of them. I smoke a box of nicotine sticks a day, which is the worst. It kills slowly but I know if I keep smoking I will probably die from it. LSD gave me the best experience ever, uncomparable in and to anything. It was so overwhelming that I never did it again. I often smoke marihuana, which gives me off for the rest of the day. It relaxes, all pressure seems to drop. I can work for hours on things without feeling sorry for things I could possibly miss. I would never have done all these Pc1600x presets without smoking herb ;o) It gives me good listening pleasure, and it's fun to try out different things, just play around. But to do the job right, I'd better be sober. The same I experienced with xtc, music seemed so real, people lovely. No panic no stress. Cocaine is also fun, it just doubles your brain speed haha. Everything goes so easy, you play music better or do whatever you want much faster than normal. It's a boost for your brain and relaxes your body.
Unlike what I live, I strongly advise people not to do drugs. It's very difficult to understand in early stages of use, partially because it's hard to etimate the negative consequences in advance. Information campagnes cannot cover whole aspects of different types of drugs, simply because it's an extremely complicated matter. Plus, each reacts different to certain drugs. People who get a bad hangover after a night out with the lads will never be alcoholics.

Think I'm gonna clear up my mind myself now. Got out of bed saturday morning, started nightshift. It's about monday morning now, sat for 17hrs on a plane and just got home. I'm gonna put Ian Brown's 'Music for the spheres' in they cd tray now, roll one and enjoy the music !)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0mic on 2002-09-01 23:30 ]</font>

[wayne]

Goodonya, Atom

The medicine show rolls on. One deals with it how one can.

[astroman]

On 2002-09-01 21:25, at0mic wrote:
...We eat, drink and smoke too much... If the doctor would not give you the medicine, you could be dead already.

yes, Atomic, they even introduced a smart sounding name by calling it Metabolic Syndrome.
But it's common practice to prescribe at once instead of trying to treat the source of the disease.
They behave just like (sorry for that) heroine dealers.
When tuned to the drug, those patients have to return over and over again for new presciption. If they stop using it, they immediately get severe problems.
The doctors live on that, an industry lives on that and it hits afaik half of the population above age 50, so it's an awful lot of money involved.
You don't die of increased blood pressure. It will cause follow-up problems over the years, certainly. There's lots of time left to start something else as therapy, but there's no motivation.
Of course this is a personal view of the facts, but I found it worth mentioning for it's strange parallelism to 'real' drug business.

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

i like how they use scary latin names to describe thing that they don't understand,so that their customers will be impressed.(tinnitus for ringing in the ears,arthritis for your joints are swollen,thrombosis for a blood clot hematoma for a bruise,etc.)

worse geekspeak than computerists!

then,instead of telling the truth about the messed up lifestyles that cause dis-ease,you get a pill to mask the symptoms and crossed fingers that the problem will disappear.

the real funny thing is that people start thinking that a pill or substance will "cure" their other ills too!(you know, like their insecurity,lack of imagination or intelligence,boredom etc)

but back to the fun task of slagging drs.all of their patients die!

[caleb]

Hmmmmm.

While not going into the "music" part of this, I do think that taking drugs can be like the training wheels you use the begin a path of enlightenment.

That is so glib and stupid that I'll continue.

I think many spiritual journeys begin with the ability to alter your perceptions - to see out of different eyes. And drugs can be a little like biofeedback (well not really - big stretch) in that once you understand that you are in a state of altered perception you become more able to reproduce this experience at will without the aid of drugs.

I always felt that was the lesson in books like those of Carlos Castaneda...that it was about learning to use your Will to discover a different reality with drugs only being...well...training wheels.

Having said that, my philosophy is not based on drug use. I actually think if you fail to control this use it would probably become dangerously destructive quite quickly and I'm not willing to take that gamble with myself.

Mind you, I don't think drugs are the only way you can do all this, I just think they can be an aid. I prefer to use meditation and incense myself.

God, I hope I made some sense here. Sometimes I feel totally incoherent when I explain my feelings on things like this.