Dear Spirit,
there are books of 300 pages to read about this subject. I found that M. Rupert (www.fromthewilderness.com)gave lectures around the world , and spotted this 3 hour lecture. I've told this before.
The impossible thing here is to wrap this big and gigantic story into this forum. This forum simply isn't ment for that. That's why I always give the links. Now Theories are still theories. So they don't proove anything. But when does proove become proove?
If it's scientific ?? If it comes from the president? on internet? Books ? Movies ? Your dad ? The news ?
Who are you gonna believe ?
All of them ? A part of them ?
Paranoia? No just theorising what proove is.
Talk to me about that first Spirit. From the summing up you made , I think you know already what the story is. But summing it up in this short , it's mangling the context that it is in.
I respect you for testing "my" story.
But I hope you respect me for starting to search for more 'awnsers' sooner than you did, and more important, I ultimately got convinced. Knowing myself a littlebit, I tested these theories just like you are doing now. And I after things like lectures , books, and political figuers , and digging the internet and a'm convinced, that the original story sucks about at any angle on any subject. Numerous things that happend that raise so many questions.
Now before I continue , I will let you Spirit take over , and tell us , what points we brought in this topic you think are bogus. And then i'll give you my view on that point by point. And no spelling jokes , or nasty quotes of hahah and hihih. This to me is a serious subject. My mind is still and will always be open.
To you then Spirit
The day against war
well, my original comment when someone in the office spread the news a plane hit the World Trade Center... was 'the CIA paid some poor arab to have reasons for action in near east...'
I assumed 'plane' referred to something like a Cessna.
Imho what happened afterwards is a bit far reaching (even for those with a huge lack of conscience), though some facts seem to provide evidence.
It could be - or could be not.
at least considering the whole story planned for years without any leakage is like building it on pure chance.
yet I don't exclude anything possible.
nevertheless I've critized Casper's attitude in spreading what he considers 'facts'.
it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong (for the discussion...) on those 'facts'.
I cannot distinguish his way of argueing from the point of view of his opponents - and a lot of sites he quoted make a lot of cash from their 'opposition' attitude.
it's not a friendly 'did you notice this... or that ?' - no, it's urging people into a certain position '...you have to believe it to be a good citizen (and to save the world)' which sounds pretty familiar ...
you may say '...but THIS IS so important' - possibly, but THIS IS IMPORTANT was exactly the argument for the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Considered one of the most horrible achievements of mankind.
But of course the attempt to bomb Hitler's headquarter in Berlin was a good thing...
and that's how the story goes - at this point you're clueless, you can't deny the contradiction due to your own subjective point of view.
Anything goes in this context - you're on par with any fascist regime in this world, you can justify any assault - as are doing all those extremists...
that's what I critizize - the 'facts' are not even relevant in this context - how can you solve this conflict and gain credibility ?
cheers, Tom
I assumed 'plane' referred to something like a Cessna.
Imho what happened afterwards is a bit far reaching (even for those with a huge lack of conscience), though some facts seem to provide evidence.
It could be - or could be not.
at least considering the whole story planned for years without any leakage is like building it on pure chance.
yet I don't exclude anything possible.
nevertheless I've critized Casper's attitude in spreading what he considers 'facts'.
it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong (for the discussion...) on those 'facts'.
I cannot distinguish his way of argueing from the point of view of his opponents - and a lot of sites he quoted make a lot of cash from their 'opposition' attitude.
it's not a friendly 'did you notice this... or that ?' - no, it's urging people into a certain position '...you have to believe it to be a good citizen (and to save the world)' which sounds pretty familiar ...
you may say '...but THIS IS so important' - possibly, but THIS IS IMPORTANT was exactly the argument for the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Considered one of the most horrible achievements of mankind.
But of course the attempt to bomb Hitler's headquarter in Berlin was a good thing...
and that's how the story goes - at this point you're clueless, you can't deny the contradiction due to your own subjective point of view.
Anything goes in this context - you're on par with any fascist regime in this world, you can justify any assault - as are doing all those extremists...
that's what I critizize - the 'facts' are not even relevant in this context - how can you solve this conflict and gain credibility ?
cheers, Tom
You make some valid points Tom.. but I can't agree that to criticize the way that western governments operate is the same as condoning terrorism. I personally have never defended any bombing. Personally I just believe that, as garyb nicely summarized, the Al Qaeda threat is funded and propelled by our own governments.
What I personally find rather distasteful is the assumption that Islam = terrorism.. another foolish equation that only opens the door to hatred and bigotry. The subtext of the propoganda we're fed is that the greasy smelly arabs are determined to destroy our 'enlightened and civilized' western world.
This is absolute bullshit and the sooner lies like this are discredited, the sooner we will have peace in the world.
The arabs are not raping and screwing you every day with stress in your job and life and charging you for the privilege through tax. The terrorism 'threat' is only going to lead to a tightening of the system's grip on our lives so that the slavery is perpetuated.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-23 18:28 ]</font>
What I personally find rather distasteful is the assumption that Islam = terrorism.. another foolish equation that only opens the door to hatred and bigotry. The subtext of the propoganda we're fed is that the greasy smelly arabs are determined to destroy our 'enlightened and civilized' western world.
This is absolute bullshit and the sooner lies like this are discredited, the sooner we will have peace in the world.
The arabs are not raping and screwing you every day with stress in your job and life and charging you for the privilege through tax. The terrorism 'threat' is only going to lead to a tightening of the system's grip on our lives so that the slavery is perpetuated.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-23 18:28 ]</font>
No reasonable agency of media or government has ever suggested that Islam equals terrorism. If anyone has evidence to the contrary then let's see it.
It the terrorists themselves who bring in the religious angle by typically wrapping their deeds or philosophy in religious terms.
Some ratbags are sure to have made the claim that Isam equals terrorism of course, but then you'll find extremists everywhere with every wild claim and thought, so no surprise there.
It the terrorists themselves who bring in the religious angle by typically wrapping their deeds or philosophy in religious terms.
Some ratbags are sure to have made the claim that Isam equals terrorism of course, but then you'll find extremists everywhere with every wild claim and thought, so no surprise there.
Quote
"
It the terrorists themselves who bring in the religious angle by typically wrapping their deeds or philosophy in religious terms.
"
But who did you get your information from?
TV ? This is one of these things I find similar to fascism. Just going along with what they say on the news. And taking over the same talk that's on TV. Do you think that just because some information isn't on TV it doesn't excists too?
You know , early after the WWII , we(Dutch people) started asking Germans why they didn't do anything to stop there regime. You know what most often was replied to that? " Wir haben es nicht gewust". "Yeah right!", I always thought. Not taking into account what a very powerfull propaganda tool TV realy is.
Quote
"Some ratbags are sure to have made the claim that Isam equals terrorism of course, but then you'll find extremists everywhere with every wild claim and thought, so no surprise there."
Agreed , no surprice indeed. Terrorist's excisted long before 911. Violent people that murder innocent people AND stated there demands in conjunction with there acts.
Can someone tell me if they knew Alqaida before 911? I had never heard of them..
Jet now on TV they are almost an infamos rockband with all the attention 'they' get.
I believe we got a european-Alquaida now too. They just recently claimed responsibility on the Londen Bombings. Isn't that a little late? Isn't the shock effect 'they wanted' long gone? Why have they waited so long?
Quote Astroman:
"
nevertheless I've critized Casper's attitude in spreading what he considers 'facts'.
it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong (for the discussion...) on those 'facts'.
"
I will give example of a fact:
Building number 7 collapsed straight down.
Now how can I be wrong on that?We all saw it.
Now I'll give an example what I normally do then:
I question the official story:
Why o why ,cause in history no building ever collapsed from an office fire, did building number 7 collapse so needly?
Am I now a concpiracy theorist?
Quote: Astroman:
"
you may say '...but THIS IS so important' - possibly, but THIS IS IMPORTANT was exactly the argument for the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Considered one of the most horrible achievements of mankind.
But of course the attempt to bomb Hitler's headquarter in Berlin was a good thing...
and that's how the story goes - at this point you're clueless, you can't deny the contradiction due to your own subjective point of view.
Anything goes in this context - you're on par with any fascist regime in this world, you can justify any assault - as are doing all those extremists... "
I'm sorry , but saying: "This is important" is no archument at all, that would be an oppinion. Then linking to the bombs on Hirishima? Now that's way out of context.
Clueless? On par with any fascist regime ?
Those are alligations I did not expect from you Tom. Please explain.
"
It the terrorists themselves who bring in the religious angle by typically wrapping their deeds or philosophy in religious terms.
"
But who did you get your information from?
TV ? This is one of these things I find similar to fascism. Just going along with what they say on the news. And taking over the same talk that's on TV. Do you think that just because some information isn't on TV it doesn't excists too?
You know , early after the WWII , we(Dutch people) started asking Germans why they didn't do anything to stop there regime. You know what most often was replied to that? " Wir haben es nicht gewust". "Yeah right!", I always thought. Not taking into account what a very powerfull propaganda tool TV realy is.
Quote
"Some ratbags are sure to have made the claim that Isam equals terrorism of course, but then you'll find extremists everywhere with every wild claim and thought, so no surprise there."
Agreed , no surprice indeed. Terrorist's excisted long before 911. Violent people that murder innocent people AND stated there demands in conjunction with there acts.
Can someone tell me if they knew Alqaida before 911? I had never heard of them..
Jet now on TV they are almost an infamos rockband with all the attention 'they' get.
I believe we got a european-Alquaida now too. They just recently claimed responsibility on the Londen Bombings. Isn't that a little late? Isn't the shock effect 'they wanted' long gone? Why have they waited so long?
Quote Astroman:
"
nevertheless I've critized Casper's attitude in spreading what he considers 'facts'.
it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong (for the discussion...) on those 'facts'.
"
I will give example of a fact:
Building number 7 collapsed straight down.
Now how can I be wrong on that?We all saw it.
Now I'll give an example what I normally do then:
I question the official story:
Why o why ,cause in history no building ever collapsed from an office fire, did building number 7 collapse so needly?
Am I now a concpiracy theorist?
Quote: Astroman:
"
you may say '...but THIS IS so important' - possibly, but THIS IS IMPORTANT was exactly the argument for the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Considered one of the most horrible achievements of mankind.
But of course the attempt to bomb Hitler's headquarter in Berlin was a good thing...
and that's how the story goes - at this point you're clueless, you can't deny the contradiction due to your own subjective point of view.
Anything goes in this context - you're on par with any fascist regime in this world, you can justify any assault - as are doing all those extremists... "
I'm sorry , but saying: "This is important" is no archument at all, that would be an oppinion. Then linking to the bombs on Hirishima? Now that's way out of context.
Clueless? On par with any fascist regime ?
Those are alligations I did not expect from you Tom. Please explain.
So you awnser the question who gained? :
with : The conspiracy theorist's.
Isn't there a little shortcoming in your awnser. Something missing. Dodging even.
Even if your absolutely right , there is this part of who gained on 911 that your not concidering. Not even mentioning.
I'm not giving up my right to speak freely if that's what you mean. And as far as I'm concerned this thread is ,yes, offtopic.
Not hijacked.
Your point on people writing books and earning money out of writing bullshit stories is very well noted.
But what would happen if everybody would stop asking questions? Wouldn't that be the ultimate situation for a government to have. They could do anything they want , when they want it. Asking questions I think is our job.
Evaluating the awnsers too.
with : The conspiracy theorist's.
Isn't there a little shortcoming in your awnser. Something missing. Dodging even.
Even if your absolutely right , there is this part of who gained on 911 that your not concidering. Not even mentioning.
I'm not giving up my right to speak freely if that's what you mean. And as far as I'm concerned this thread is ,yes, offtopic.
Not hijacked.
Your point on people writing books and earning money out of writing bullshit stories is very well noted.
But what would happen if everybody would stop asking questions? Wouldn't that be the ultimate situation for a government to have. They could do anything they want , when they want it. Asking questions I think is our job.
Evaluating the awnsers too.
Caspar, that sentence 'but this is important...' was a rhethorical phrase intended to anticipate someone's arguments.On 2005-09-24 02:05, Casper wrote:
...I'm sorry , but saying: "This is important" is no archument at all, that would be an oppinion. Then linking to the bombs on Hirishima? Now that's way out of context.
Clueless? On par with any fascist regime ?
Those are alligations I did not expect from you Tom. Please explain.
It's not my personal judgement of a given situation.
I would estimate that 90% of all people who refuse violence as a political 'tool' would consider the attempt to kill A.H. in Berlin justified - because it was important to save other lives.
you'll easily find the same attitude in everyday life situations, preferably in traffic.
the 'others' have to obey the rules - for 'me' it's justified to break them because it fits my personal situation... sounds familiar ?
I've only extended it a little bit (in a more unusual direction) and you will have a severe problem to explain what makes your intention different from any of your opponents.
I DO NOT put you on the same level with them.
I wrote you're on par regarding your arguments.
And I do not see a clue in this context - this widespread way of 'political' argueing (anywhere in the world) can immediately reversed by any group in any situation.
People use to follow it, but imho it's completely pointless.
Do you want to call it common sense ? as in germany 70 years ago...
Do you want a majority ? than it's China for sure to set the rules
I'd rather prefer to quote Nietzsche on the subject, but I'm afraid that even more stupid ones than myself already do so (though I'm convinced they don't qualify - as those didn't 70 years ago...)
but thanks to your persistence I do see the threats of terrorism more relaxed now, because you made me think twice...
It's unpleasing and disgusting but finally I'm more likely to win the top price of the weekly lottery than to get involved in a bombing.
well, and finally a contribution to conspiracy you might want to check:
I've recently watched (again...) The Silence of the Lambs, as it's my wife's favourite birthday movie...
... it originates from 1990 - my DVD is a 2004 copy - was Osama's picture (FBI most wanted files) in the original version or has the movie been edited ?
cheers, Tom
@stardust: I absolutely agree
osama IS MOST DEFINITELY a freind of gwb. he DEFINITELY built the torabora cave facilities in afghanistan for the us government as part of the binladen construction company. he was DEFINITELY in the us hospital in dubai speaking to the cia section cheif AFTER the bombing of the uss cole in th persian gulf, when he was supposed to be wanted for terrorism. these FACTS are from verifiable sources like the ap and french news agency, not conspiracy theorists. this is not about secrets.
put your head in the sand if you like, just like good people in germany did in the 30's and see if camps reappear. when it's over and the full truth comes out you can say "we didn't know!" and there can be people claiming that it never happened....stardust's threatening(rhetorically) post shows that clearly. an honest regime has no need to demonize or punish dissenters.
put your head in the sand if you like, just like good people in germany did in the 30's and see if camps reappear. when it's over and the full truth comes out you can say "we didn't know!" and there can be people claiming that it never happened....stardust's threatening(rhetorically) post shows that clearly. an honest regime has no need to demonize or punish dissenters.
There's nothing fuzzy about what garyb said... There are no absolute truths. This is not exactly the same as 30's Germany but it shares many similarities. If you think that this thing is so disconnected from 30's Germany and subsequent events, then you clearly have no idea, do not want to fully comprehend, or simply do not care, what is happening in Iraq.
I'd love to know how you think people should 'get active'. Have you ever been to the USA? It's not the easiest environment to stage peaceful protests, especially after recent patriot act legislation. Or are you advocating 'direct action' such as that perpetrated by anti-G8 anarchists, or perhaps like that of the islamic terrorists?
So what is 'getting active' in this context? Even creating a website which is financed by selling books and videos (such as the Alex Jones sites like Infowars.com etc) is looked upon by derision by reactionary sceptics, seen as a cynical money-making exercise.
So tell me, how is one supposed to act? Personally I have way more respect for Casper's passion on the subject than your dry indifference and scepticism.
I'd love to know how you think people should 'get active'. Have you ever been to the USA? It's not the easiest environment to stage peaceful protests, especially after recent patriot act legislation. Or are you advocating 'direct action' such as that perpetrated by anti-G8 anarchists, or perhaps like that of the islamic terrorists?
So what is 'getting active' in this context? Even creating a website which is financed by selling books and videos (such as the Alex Jones sites like Infowars.com etc) is looked upon by derision by reactionary sceptics, seen as a cynical money-making exercise.
So tell me, how is one supposed to act? Personally I have way more respect for Casper's passion on the subject than your dry indifference and scepticism.
stardust, i like your last line.
i see you have reduced my words to ridiculousness by separating them from the discussion and by focusing on what for you are key words like "germany in the 30's". i'm sorry for the limitations of language, but what i was saying is that the same organizations active in the formation of nazi germany are still active. those organizations draw power from confusion and apathy and that allowing them to control discourse, thought and action will bring about a much more serious holocaust involving all of humanity. these organizations carry names such as "bohemian club", "order of death" and "thule society", "skull and bones" and "bilderberg". they claim to be doing us favors...if you like these groups or the higher organization behind them well then...you may disagree, but then i'd say you were mistaken.
action is what i have done just this moment...
i see you have reduced my words to ridiculousness by separating them from the discussion and by focusing on what for you are key words like "germany in the 30's". i'm sorry for the limitations of language, but what i was saying is that the same organizations active in the formation of nazi germany are still active. those organizations draw power from confusion and apathy and that allowing them to control discourse, thought and action will bring about a much more serious holocaust involving all of humanity. these organizations carry names such as "bohemian club", "order of death" and "thule society", "skull and bones" and "bilderberg". they claim to be doing us favors...if you like these groups or the higher organization behind them well then...you may disagree, but then i'd say you were mistaken.
action is what i have done just this moment...
Contrary to what you may think, I do not take some kind of morbid joy in thinking about what's happening in the world. I have a life to lead too, I have a job and a family, and I'm not about to put them at risk for the sake of so-called 'moral courage'. When I know how amoral and brutal the government can be, why the hell would I openly expose myself to them? My raison d'etre is not to fight the system. I really wish I did not even have to think about that stuff as I have more than enough on my plate already to deal with.
I'd love to bury my head in the sand thinking everything is okay but maybe it's because of where I live that I simply cannot. Inequality and sick governmental policy is everywhere to be seen in London. For example:
10% of London's population is black, yet 70% of gun crime in London involves black people.
Now does this make you think that:
(a) Black people are naturally violent criminals
or
(b) Black people are so chronically deprived of opportunities that there are not many alternatives to selling crack in order to survive, leading to inevitable gang violence.
Basically, the vast majority of people in this country would answer (a). And this is symptomatic of how deep the brainwashing goes. This is just one example.
I'm more than happy to fight that brainwashing... it's one of the only things I have the power to do at this point in time. This is my 'moral courage'. I'm not trying to be a pretentious bastard here... this stuff is important. This planet will die if we don't wake the fuck up.
I'd love to bury my head in the sand thinking everything is okay but maybe it's because of where I live that I simply cannot. Inequality and sick governmental policy is everywhere to be seen in London. For example:
10% of London's population is black, yet 70% of gun crime in London involves black people.
Now does this make you think that:
(a) Black people are naturally violent criminals
or
(b) Black people are so chronically deprived of opportunities that there are not many alternatives to selling crack in order to survive, leading to inevitable gang violence.
Basically, the vast majority of people in this country would answer (a). And this is symptomatic of how deep the brainwashing goes. This is just one example.
I'm more than happy to fight that brainwashing... it's one of the only things I have the power to do at this point in time. This is my 'moral courage'. I'm not trying to be a pretentious bastard here... this stuff is important. This planet will die if we don't wake the fuck up.