Damn, u should copyright that name, its sooo nice! somebodey PLEASE develop a drum device that is worth that name!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2004-06-08 22:34 ]</font>
Drum devices
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
Hi,
I'd like some features in creamware to expedite making a composition without loading up any outside applications. So I'm happy that you're discussing a drum machine.
Just a metronome would be great. The ability to do odd meters is important. Quick, no-brainer startup is important.
I often like to have a simple pattern going while I get started, then discard it to make the real drum parts later. A grid-type drum machine like the Roland's or Orion's is pretty good for that. I really like Zap's Little Drummer Boy and Stomper. I like to have panning for each drum.
If I could quickly outline the form of my tune with the device, that'd be great. But that involves sections of 5/4, 7/4, etc.
How about if the grid were extendable, step by step? Click on the end of the grid, and more steps appear.
It'd be a bonus to be able to plug midi patterns into it.
Sometimes I think it would be good to have a drum machine and recorder that are integrated with a CW mixer. Like one of the hardware mixer/recorders.
I'd like some features in creamware to expedite making a composition without loading up any outside applications. So I'm happy that you're discussing a drum machine.
Just a metronome would be great. The ability to do odd meters is important. Quick, no-brainer startup is important.
I often like to have a simple pattern going while I get started, then discard it to make the real drum parts later. A grid-type drum machine like the Roland's or Orion's is pretty good for that. I really like Zap's Little Drummer Boy and Stomper. I like to have panning for each drum.
If I could quickly outline the form of my tune with the device, that'd be great. But that involves sections of 5/4, 7/4, etc.
How about if the grid were extendable, step by step? Click on the end of the grid, and more steps appear.
It'd be a bonus to be able to plug midi patterns into it.
Sometimes I think it would be good to have a drum machine and recorder that are integrated with a CW mixer. Like one of the hardware mixer/recorders.
-
Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
Me, i'd be happy if you did a virtual CR-78 and LM-1
Given that this wouldn't be very flexible for most users (and i have a real 78 and LM-1 samples aplenty) i have some other suggestions.
What i like about the CR-78 is the way you can combine any two patterns by just holding two buttons, with usually good results. As each sound has only one generator you don't get any doubled note phase/flamming like you do when doubling samples. So something like Spirit suggested with creating your own library of presets and using them in sequence and in combinations live or progammed would be great, with the ability to combine two (or preferably more) sequences without phasing/flamming going on. Also a separate sequencer (with its own preset list) for 'fills' with its own button to hit on-the-fly would be great.
i really think though that a drum machine with no sequencer is a bit pointless as i would rather use samples if i'm triggering from my sequencer. The point of a drum machine is that you create rhythms on them that you wouldn't necessarily create from a sequencer as you're forced to write in a different way. Of course, people who prefer to use their sequencer would be able to do that too, so i don't see a problem having both methods available.
Also things like a swing function as implimented on the LM-1 would be great (don't know if the maths for this is available - the LM-1 had one of the best swings ever available).
i also own an R-8M and this has a Humanize (sic) and Random function (similar to a suggestion by Spirit earlier). First the Humanize function has a 16-step display where you can adjust +/- from 0 (which is no humanise) and assign one of a number of parameters - decay, nuance (different timbres) and velocity. Random just has a range and can also act on the same parameters within the given Random range. i'm sure timing could also be added for some random fun. i suppose these functions are similar to a 'swing' function, but they act on 'live' sources (ie your sequencer or you playing live via a MIDI pad), so are different every time and it also means those users not using the in-built drum box sequencer would still be able to use the Human/Random functions.
Also, in Prophet Plus-style, it would be nice if you could drop wavs into slots to replace the drum machine's own sound source by a sample - handy for your favourite drum sounds (EDIT: i see scary808 already suggested this).
Phew. If anyone can make a drum machine with all that in consider it already bought.
Mr A
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2004-06-12 07:14 ]</font>
Given that this wouldn't be very flexible for most users (and i have a real 78 and LM-1 samples aplenty) i have some other suggestions.
What i like about the CR-78 is the way you can combine any two patterns by just holding two buttons, with usually good results. As each sound has only one generator you don't get any doubled note phase/flamming like you do when doubling samples. So something like Spirit suggested with creating your own library of presets and using them in sequence and in combinations live or progammed would be great, with the ability to combine two (or preferably more) sequences without phasing/flamming going on. Also a separate sequencer (with its own preset list) for 'fills' with its own button to hit on-the-fly would be great.
i really think though that a drum machine with no sequencer is a bit pointless as i would rather use samples if i'm triggering from my sequencer. The point of a drum machine is that you create rhythms on them that you wouldn't necessarily create from a sequencer as you're forced to write in a different way. Of course, people who prefer to use their sequencer would be able to do that too, so i don't see a problem having both methods available.
Also things like a swing function as implimented on the LM-1 would be great (don't know if the maths for this is available - the LM-1 had one of the best swings ever available).
i also own an R-8M and this has a Humanize (sic) and Random function (similar to a suggestion by Spirit earlier). First the Humanize function has a 16-step display where you can adjust +/- from 0 (which is no humanise) and assign one of a number of parameters - decay, nuance (different timbres) and velocity. Random just has a range and can also act on the same parameters within the given Random range. i'm sure timing could also be added for some random fun. i suppose these functions are similar to a 'swing' function, but they act on 'live' sources (ie your sequencer or you playing live via a MIDI pad), so are different every time and it also means those users not using the in-built drum box sequencer would still be able to use the Human/Random functions.
Also, in Prophet Plus-style, it would be nice if you could drop wavs into slots to replace the drum machine's own sound source by a sample - handy for your favourite drum sounds (EDIT: i see scary808 already suggested this).
Phew. If anyone can make a drum machine with all that in consider it already bought.
Mr A
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2004-06-12 07:14 ]</font>
You know, as a drummer myself, and eventually dissapointed owner of many drum boxes, one of the first things I,
(quite naively but super inspired) set out to create the night I got my Scope system was a :
MEGGA SUPER COOL, ADJUSTABLE EVERYTHING, BLINDINGLY REALISTICALLY FAT at the same time as ULTRA OUT-THERE-SYNTHETIC, NEVER BEFORE ATTEMPTED, cross between a LINN 9000--DRUMTRAX-R8-STOMPER-ATTACK-SUPER-HUMAN-REALTIME-SAMPLING-FAIRLIGHT...BUT WITH A HUGER KICK...type thing only to climb into bed that night exhausted after having given up on all that by 8PM and just getting on my drums in the other room and playing all night...ahhhhh)))
Oh yeah, anyway, I'll be releasing this device soon...
sayton
De-Vice'
http://www.deviceplug-ins.com
(quite naively but super inspired) set out to create the night I got my Scope system was a :
MEGGA SUPER COOL, ADJUSTABLE EVERYTHING, BLINDINGLY REALISTICALLY FAT at the same time as ULTRA OUT-THERE-SYNTHETIC, NEVER BEFORE ATTEMPTED, cross between a LINN 9000--DRUMTRAX-R8-STOMPER-ATTACK-SUPER-HUMAN-REALTIME-SAMPLING-FAIRLIGHT...BUT WITH A HUGER KICK...type thing only to climb into bed that night exhausted after having given up on all that by 8PM and just getting on my drums in the other room and playing all night...ahhhhh
)))Oh yeah, anyway, I'll be releasing this device soon...
sayton
De-Vice'
http://www.deviceplug-ins.com
Warning: I've had a lot of thoughts on this matter. I've tried to edit it as to be intelligible, but it's late and I've had a long day. Please forgive any excessive rambling. ;P
I too have been sorely disappointed by many drum-synths/sequencers. I think Reason is probably the most well-organized drum programming platform ever. Unfortunately, everything that Reason can produce ultimately sounds like it was made in Reason which to my ears is not spectacular.
Those are my opinions and are purely a matter of taste, but it illustrates the major problem of most drum synths or tools in general. Because of the current cut-throat audio market most devices are usually fixed in some way, or are by definition a big bucket of parts which ends up excluding newbs or those who have to make music on strict deadlines, or otherwise want to be able to throw a range of drum tones together very quickly.
The Scope platform is not immune from this, but because it is in itself semi-modular, and because of the way the Modular platform sits on top of the parent OS, and because the DevKit is about to be more available to the common (wo)man it allows for a slightly more open and egalitarian option. One that I think would (if properly advertised to the outside world) could help the Scope Platform as a whole, and be in itself far more competitive against other similar products.
My thoughts on what I think would be the best drum synth ever would be to not make it one end all be all device, but to focus initially on more devices in the vein of KickMe, but instead of making them .dev's, make them individual modules. That way, at the very least, people can pick them up cheap as little $10-#30 (or whatever) additions to the Module library, or buy the grand bundles.
But it also would allow a drum PLATFORM to develop.
To continue evolving the idea, it could lead to the development of semi-modular shells (or kits if you will). So one could choose from different workflow designs, or perhaps even within each kit/shell design presetable options allowing for variations in appearance or signal flow.
In truth, it's not much more than extending the original Red Dwarf idea, but here it would be more specifically geared towards rhythmic construction and manipulation instead of the typical virtual-analog, and being able to slap your drum/sample tones and effects into a predictable signal chain so you can be making beats in under a minute or two.
Another way of thinking about it would be to imagine if our old friend Angus at fxpansion had built DR-008, not as it's own platform where he would have to woo other developers to develop modules for his creation, but instead built DR-008 to piggyback on top of Reaktor, opening up development both the heavier coding of VST programming, but also the quick and dirty visual programming of Reaktor, for which there is already an immense user base.
So, if we imagine that this theoretical playground got some footing, someone could potentially pick a workflow shell, load their drumsynths (or modular sample players, or something yet unimagined) into the various banks/channels, toss in a few Red-Dwarf and/or standard inserts, allowing people to use their ModII/III/Flexor filters, delays, timestrechers, whatever, over a single drum, the entire kit, whatever blows one's skirt up. And voila! You've got a custom kit which is usable.
This concept leaves room for any number of new sequencer/matrix/groove-sculpting designs to be implemented, while leaving current ones valid and useable where appropriate. Swap in whatever is most suitable for what you're doing.
The most important idea is that it stay Modular at every level, so that it can extend beyond drums, but new, flexible, ways of building sounds of any kind. No one is left unhappy because their prize feature isn't in the otherwise perfect device, and no developers have to feel like it's some gargantuan project which would require an unfathomable dedication of time and energy.
JB, Stephen Hummle, the Flexor folks, or anyone I've left unmentioned could make a drum synth module or 2, or a new algorythm for allowing a 2nd cymbal hit to alter the ring of the 1st hit (so it doesn't play like two separate hits or cut the first one off) or something along those lines. Maybe, one could load midi-controllable groove modules or arpeggiators in place of traditional matrix sequencers. Or one could run a programmed beat in a matrix through the groove editor to produce realtime variations.
Others could design new shells and interesting signal paths, or even just cool skins. Different shells would naturally excel at creating rhythms in different ways.
Hell if developers were able (or would even want) to disassemble drum synths they've already made into modular-friendly components, that might reinvigorate (or resurrect) their sales for a lot of hard work already done.
If there's one thing that this thread has demonstrated, it's that we've all got a lot of devices that do certain things well, and other things poorly, or at least short of our imagination or expectations.
In my opinion, it would make more sense to avoid the singular device(s) and instead have the drum concept mirror the over all Modular concept and be an open sub-platform, as it could grow at it's own pace, brach off in any number of directions, and would be immediately useful within the current Modular paradigms while the greater schemas and goal posts are still being developed. Kind of like a signature line of (semi)Modular, specifically for drums.
Did that make sense? Does it sound cool? Did I just make a big deal of something stupid and obvious? I don't care right now. I'm going to bed. I'll read yalls tomorrow once I've slept.
My $.87.
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-06-19 01:02 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-06-19 01:19 ]</font>
I too have been sorely disappointed by many drum-synths/sequencers. I think Reason is probably the most well-organized drum programming platform ever. Unfortunately, everything that Reason can produce ultimately sounds like it was made in Reason which to my ears is not spectacular.
Those are my opinions and are purely a matter of taste, but it illustrates the major problem of most drum synths or tools in general. Because of the current cut-throat audio market most devices are usually fixed in some way, or are by definition a big bucket of parts which ends up excluding newbs or those who have to make music on strict deadlines, or otherwise want to be able to throw a range of drum tones together very quickly.
The Scope platform is not immune from this, but because it is in itself semi-modular, and because of the way the Modular platform sits on top of the parent OS, and because the DevKit is about to be more available to the common (wo)man it allows for a slightly more open and egalitarian option. One that I think would (if properly advertised to the outside world) could help the Scope Platform as a whole, and be in itself far more competitive against other similar products.
My thoughts on what I think would be the best drum synth ever would be to not make it one end all be all device, but to focus initially on more devices in the vein of KickMe, but instead of making them .dev's, make them individual modules. That way, at the very least, people can pick them up cheap as little $10-#30 (or whatever) additions to the Module library, or buy the grand bundles.
But it also would allow a drum PLATFORM to develop.
To continue evolving the idea, it could lead to the development of semi-modular shells (or kits if you will). So one could choose from different workflow designs, or perhaps even within each kit/shell design presetable options allowing for variations in appearance or signal flow.
In truth, it's not much more than extending the original Red Dwarf idea, but here it would be more specifically geared towards rhythmic construction and manipulation instead of the typical virtual-analog, and being able to slap your drum/sample tones and effects into a predictable signal chain so you can be making beats in under a minute or two.
Another way of thinking about it would be to imagine if our old friend Angus at fxpansion had built DR-008, not as it's own platform where he would have to woo other developers to develop modules for his creation, but instead built DR-008 to piggyback on top of Reaktor, opening up development both the heavier coding of VST programming, but also the quick and dirty visual programming of Reaktor, for which there is already an immense user base.
So, if we imagine that this theoretical playground got some footing, someone could potentially pick a workflow shell, load their drumsynths (or modular sample players, or something yet unimagined) into the various banks/channels, toss in a few Red-Dwarf and/or standard inserts, allowing people to use their ModII/III/Flexor filters, delays, timestrechers, whatever, over a single drum, the entire kit, whatever blows one's skirt up. And voila! You've got a custom kit which is usable.
This concept leaves room for any number of new sequencer/matrix/groove-sculpting designs to be implemented, while leaving current ones valid and useable where appropriate. Swap in whatever is most suitable for what you're doing.
The most important idea is that it stay Modular at every level, so that it can extend beyond drums, but new, flexible, ways of building sounds of any kind. No one is left unhappy because their prize feature isn't in the otherwise perfect device, and no developers have to feel like it's some gargantuan project which would require an unfathomable dedication of time and energy.
JB, Stephen Hummle, the Flexor folks, or anyone I've left unmentioned could make a drum synth module or 2, or a new algorythm for allowing a 2nd cymbal hit to alter the ring of the 1st hit (so it doesn't play like two separate hits or cut the first one off) or something along those lines. Maybe, one could load midi-controllable groove modules or arpeggiators in place of traditional matrix sequencers. Or one could run a programmed beat in a matrix through the groove editor to produce realtime variations.
Others could design new shells and interesting signal paths, or even just cool skins. Different shells would naturally excel at creating rhythms in different ways.
Hell if developers were able (or would even want) to disassemble drum synths they've already made into modular-friendly components, that might reinvigorate (or resurrect) their sales for a lot of hard work already done.
If there's one thing that this thread has demonstrated, it's that we've all got a lot of devices that do certain things well, and other things poorly, or at least short of our imagination or expectations.
In my opinion, it would make more sense to avoid the singular device(s) and instead have the drum concept mirror the over all Modular concept and be an open sub-platform, as it could grow at it's own pace, brach off in any number of directions, and would be immediately useful within the current Modular paradigms while the greater schemas and goal posts are still being developed.
Kind of like a signature line of (semi)Modular, specifically for drums.Did that make sense? Does it sound cool? Did I just make a big deal of something stupid and obvious? I don't care right now. I'm going to bed. I'll read yalls tomorrow once I've slept.
My $.87.
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-06-19 01:02 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-06-19 01:19 ]</font>
Well, indeed dehuszar!
OK, so, you've now basically described exactly what I'm building! The RD Drum product will have the RD Drum Shell, with a number of modules, both synthetic and sample-based. At the moment I have finished the basic set of modules (kick, 2 snares, tim, cowbell, etc.), along with some special customizable modules for the user.
I didn't want to say too much about the project yet, but you have nailed the concept exactly!
The RD Drum shell has 12 RD insert slots, and 4 fixed slots (there's a reason for the fixed slots, but I may still add 4 more RD inserts to replace the fixed). Each slot can be populated with whatever you want, etc., just as dehuszar describes!
I'm almost ready to start some beta testing for it, but unfortunately I've had to be called away for personal issues this week, so there will be some delay in getting things finished to beta test level...but I have been having fun with it so far!
cheers,
OK, so, you've now basically described exactly what I'm building! The RD Drum product will have the RD Drum Shell, with a number of modules, both synthetic and sample-based. At the moment I have finished the basic set of modules (kick, 2 snares, tim, cowbell, etc.), along with some special customizable modules for the user.
I didn't want to say too much about the project yet, but you have nailed the concept exactly!
The RD Drum shell has 12 RD insert slots, and 4 fixed slots (there's a reason for the fixed slots, but I may still add 4 more RD inserts to replace the fixed). Each slot can be populated with whatever you want, etc., just as dehuszar describes!
I'm almost ready to start some beta testing for it, but unfortunately I've had to be called away for personal issues this week, so there will be some delay in getting things finished to beta test level...but I have been having fun with it so far!
cheers,
john bowen
bowen synth design
zarg music
bowen synth design
zarg music
-
Basic Pitch
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:00 pm
Hi all,
I would also love to see a device of this nature, for bliss would be a 909ish kick with flexor patches to emulate kick me, then throw in some modular parts to make some really fat 808ish kicks.
Create some synthetic hats and 808 toms, then some how I guess with modular devices create as close as possible live sounding hats and good (not we we have now) snappy snares and claps.
Give this device multimple outs and key groups, mute groups and velocity layers and then we could have a cool all pulsar drum device, of course you could leave slots open for inserts directly for comps, verbs, delays filters etc etc, we could then have a very cool and desirable drum module for the scope platform.
Basically just summing up whats been said
Cheers!
I would also love to see a device of this nature, for bliss would be a 909ish kick with flexor patches to emulate kick me, then throw in some modular parts to make some really fat 808ish kicks.
Create some synthetic hats and 808 toms, then some how I guess with modular devices create as close as possible live sounding hats and good (not we we have now) snappy snares and claps.
Give this device multimple outs and key groups, mute groups and velocity layers and then we could have a cool all pulsar drum device, of course you could leave slots open for inserts directly for comps, verbs, delays filters etc etc, we could then have a very cool and desirable drum module for the scope platform.
Basically just summing up whats been said
Cheers!
Don't forget - with my RD Module series, you have a special Modular Window Template that can load into RD Slots...so, if you want to have some customised thing as a Modular, you can create it (using one of these special "templates") and load it into the RD Drum easily for further processing, etc.
Of course there will be regular Insert Effects slots, etc.
cheers,
Of course there will be regular Insert Effects slots, etc.
cheers,
john bowen
bowen synth design
zarg music
bowen synth design
zarg music
I'am a little late so ... good suggestion Spirit about the LFO to pitch.
Otherwise it's great to see that the major players are interested and ... all solutions are welcome hoping you won't walk on each other feet !
I still think a super duper drum computer is makeable or different variations to offer a wide spectrum of electronic sounds.
Some pics of the reaktor's newscool ensemble I mentioned :
It's the drum core only, there's a filter / drive section under + a tempo delay section.
T/2 and T/4 are tempo divisors, the orange light indicates progression, the knobs under the sequencer enable the selection of various combinations of " sine decays " triggering.
The four " sine decays " macros structure
A " sine decay " macro ... if you need some light on this but most can be guessed I think.
So this is what I had in mind but boosted with more ( accurate ) controls and more options.
This little ensemble can produce a lot of various percs so imagine if you start to add more features !!!
Otherwise it's great to see that the major players are interested and ... all solutions are welcome hoping you won't walk on each other feet !
I still think a super duper drum computer is makeable or different variations to offer a wide spectrum of electronic sounds.
Some pics of the reaktor's newscool ensemble I mentioned :
It's the drum core only, there's a filter / drive section under + a tempo delay section.
T/2 and T/4 are tempo divisors, the orange light indicates progression, the knobs under the sequencer enable the selection of various combinations of " sine decays " triggering.
The four " sine decays " macros structure
A " sine decay " macro ... if you need some light on this but most can be guessed I think.
So this is what I had in mind but boosted with more ( accurate ) controls and more options.
This little ensemble can produce a lot of various percs so imagine if you start to add more features !!!
Hi all,
Well, thanks for all the interest!
The Reaktor example is interesting (and looking at it reminds me how much I didn't like working with that program!), but as mentioned, the plan now is not to have a 'fixed' device such as the "newscool ensemble" decimator posted.
I'm going to be making some changes in my plans, as you will see, but not to worry! There will be several tools to use for drum and rhythm creation, and a greater variety of modules than first thought.
Well, thanks for all the interest!
The Reaktor example is interesting (and looking at it reminds me how much I didn't like working with that program!), but as mentioned, the plan now is not to have a 'fixed' device such as the "newscool ensemble" decimator posted.
I'm going to be making some changes in my plans, as you will see, but not to worry! There will be several tools to use for drum and rhythm creation, and a greater variety of modules than first thought.
john bowen
bowen synth design
zarg music
bowen synth design
zarg music