PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Burnin3styleFingaz wrote:Sorry too Gary ..but can you Imagine to buy Scope 5 ONLY to make the Soundcard possible to hear some Sound on Vista? Iam not Dumb to Buy it ONLY for this thing.Only for Drivers.
And Iam not interested to the other new things of Scope 5..like above I wrote.
198 € for Vista to hear some SOund...or playing Games with Dx10 & Sound? Forget it.
Luna/Scope IS a Multimedia Soundcard too without needing a second Card with other more Issues.

yes, i can imagine that! i wouldn't even use vista unless it was for a new computer with new functionality, otherwise, why upgrade at all? if i'm spending all that money, i'd spend the rest, not because that's what i want to do, spend money, but because that's how it is and it's fair. it takes more time than you think to code these things and the coders must be paid. this isn't a soundblaster card. it's not a matter of "just a driver" even if that's what makes sense to you.

you may all be really interested how the story of the infamous replacement pump continues...
well, here it goes:
they don't make the original, slow moving one anymore, oops
so we have to go with the new high speed thingy which seems to be constructed for a smaller tube diameter
it's pretty noisy (compared to it's predecessor), but not THAT noisy to refuse it
we don't want the higher throughput neither do we need it at all
doesn't help - there is only THAT specific device

cheers, Tom
(true story btw)

Burnin3styleFingaz, I would concede you have a point IF you just look at this one particular upgrade in isolation, and the fact that you only have 1 Luna ( I'm assuming ).

The upgrade from 4.0 to 5.0 cost for me was across 12 DSP not just 3 where you can't run as much of the benefit.

But none of the products I've bought over the years would yield a better TCO ( Total Cost of Ownership ) value than my S|C stuff, especially over a decade of use and still good for lets say another 5 years.

Burnin3styleFingaz wrote: We payed for Future functionality. and not for a season!!

Again, where in the contract was this? In fact I doubt there are many companies that promise this. Tell this to all the people who bought Yamaha's DSP Factory (I nearly did) plus many, many other products. I presume that all these 64-bit computers and their OSs you are getting are also free too.

You seem to have completely missed my point (I was too subtle, I admit) - you're talking about Creamware cards you bought and the upgrades you bought were Creamware. Go and complain to Creamware if you can. Sonic Core are a new company. You may as well complain to Use Audio because they bought the technology too, and they haven't supported the Creamware card at all. In fact Sonic Core could have dropped the card support too (there was no remit to carry on support, they just bought the technology) and just developed XITE like Use did with Plugiator. In a lot of ways I wish they had.

Burnin3styleFingaz wrote:Sorry too Gary ..but can you Imagine to buy Scope 5 ONLY to make the Soundcard possible to hear some Sound on Vista? Iam not Dumb to Buy it ONLY for this thing.Only for Drivers.
And Iam not interested to the other new things of Scope 5..like above I wrote.
198 € for Vista to hear some SOund...or playing Games with Dx10 & Sound? Forget it.
Luna/Scope IS a Multimedia Soundcard too without needing a second Card with other more Issues.

Fingaz, sorry to say but Vista is shit. If your goal is to be updated and be able to use DX10 AND Scope, upgrade to windows 7 32bit and you can run Scope 4 happily.

I do have some sympathy for Elektra/Luna owners because they can't take full advantage of many of the freebies bundled with the upgrades, but then there are quite a few of us out there with higher-spec cards who already own most or even all of those freebies anyway. So how exactly do you make it fair? However you do it there will be winners and losers. Except that we are all winners because we still have an opportunity to use our ancient Creamware products with yet another generation of operating systems. The bottom line is this:

It doesn't matter how much you paid Creamware in the past for stuff and how much Sonic Core is charging now for upgrades - Sonic Core is NOT Creamware and they are doing you a big, big favor by still supporting Creamware legacy products.

If that seems harsh to you then I apologize, but life can be harsh sometimes. One more point I would make - if you are considering upgrading from a pre-4.5 version to 5.1, get in touch with Sonic Core NOW to talk about that.

you're absolutely correct, but there's a fact not to be overlooked (like it or not...)
Luna users choose the budget path, always.

If you look at the card, it's physical value isn't that different from a Scope. Those DSPs don't cost an arm and a leg.
The relatively affordable product had the full software capabilities of the bigger systems and it's this basic software that defines the product costs.
It's NOT in a couple of devices, be it reverbs or mastering comps.
Those may have a tremendous user value, but are peanuts in the sense of developement effort.
A(ny) company trying to stay in business must find a way to compensate this discrepancy:
what YOU see (and like mostly) is the quick and dirty part, the (almost) invisible base system is what drives THEM nuts.

So they shell out some sugar from time to time to keep us happy.
Overall (as mentioned) we can consider us really happy that the stuff is kept alive and kicking.
90% of all users have had one or the other great (ie free) update in the past - can't even count mine over the years.

It's perfectly ok that a company (be it CW or SC) has a teaser in form of the Luna in the hope that people extend it with one of bigger cards.
If the customer decides that he or she doesn't need more... well, ok... then that's about it.
No demands apply, then... (imho)
As far as I'm concerned I don't appreciate to risk support of my gear because some uber-ego moron isn't able to comprehend even the most basic business rules

cheers, Tom

PaulSh wrote:I do have some sympathy for Elektra/Luna owners because they can't take full advantage of many of the freebies bundled with the upgrades, but then there are quite a few of us out there with higher-spec cards who already own most or even all of those freebies anyway. So how exactly do you make it fair? However you do it there will be winners and losers. Except that we are all winners because we still have an opportunity to use our ancient Creamware products with yet another generation of operating systems. The bottom line is this:

It doesn't matter how much you paid Creamware in the past for stuff and how much Sonic Core is charging now for upgrades - Sonic Core is NOT Creamware and they are doing you a big, big favor by still supporting Creamware legacy products.

If that seems harsh to you then I apologize, but life can be harsh sometimes. One more point I would make - if you are considering upgrading from a pre-4.5 version to 5.1, get in touch with Sonic Core NOW to talk about that.

sorry, but totally disagree.

a favor??
drivers for the existing hardware??
but these cards are still sold at soniccores store!!! how can it be a favor that the hardwae that still exists at the stores and is still advertised and coexists with every other newer or older product of soniccore is supported by its software.....??
to pay for a specific update or not is another issue. but to exist?? we all know that life is unfair sometimes.. and you never know whats going to rise next morning.... in history have happened so many disasters.......bla bla bla.....
it is more simple i guess.

those cards aren't still sold. try to buy one. there are none. S|C hasn't had time or resources to build pci cards, the XITEs(the current pci-e technology) have taken all their energy.

http://www.sonic-core.net/shop/index.ph ... tform.html


you meen this is just iconic??? virtual reality??????

dude, do you understand that i'd be SELLING pci cards if i could get them? try to buy one.

they haven't been officially discontinued(hence you have ANY support at all), but i wouldn't hold my breath about getting one...

went to soniccores store and went just a step before entering my visa card number for a scope pro14dsp.... i am not going to charge it for 2000 euros man just to check

but the store seems alive and more vivid than ever

ARCADIOS wrote:the store seems alive and more vivid than ever

that's good.
there will be some new developements very soon.

Well I wanted to clarify some of these points for a future scoperise edition, can anyone answer :

. A Luna owner on Scope4.0 CAN run it on Win7 32 bit.
. The only thing a Scope4.0 Luna owner cant do is run it on a 64 bit O/S (as we know only Scope 5.1 beta is for 64 bit)
. I too checked the S|C shop to the point of paying for a PCI card, but take it that going fully through the process wont work - eg you cannot order a Scope PCI card from the S|C shop ?
. What did S|C do with the cards they got from the XITE-1 buyback scheme ? - are they just spares to replace breakdowns ? Or have they already been sold ?
. The ONLY place you can now purchase a Scope PCI card is secondhand - eg here on the Z or eBay etc.
. Rationales for no free driver update allowing a Scope4.0 user to run it on a 64 bit O/S include :
1) Luna was Creamware and not S|C etc etc.
2) Many 32 bit software vendors dont give free 64 bit updates (this is my experience).
3) The Scope 4.0 => 5.0 upgrade is a great deal anyway and will give you a 5.0 =>5.1 64 bit upgrade path

it is widely reported that v4 WILL run on win7

afaik, there are no pci cards available, though they've never been officially discontinued and seem to be in the shop. i have tried to get cards for clients and haven't been able to, except 2nd hand. there haven't been any made for what must be a few years now.

afaik, the card buybacks have been used only for spare parts.

afaik, there are no free driver updates from v4 as v5 is a rewrite with a different driver. the new driver requires v5 and vice versa, they can't be used seperately and all that work costs a lot of money. 64bit requires changes to the software AND the driver(nothing in Scope is just a driver only, Scope cards are NOT standard windows soundcards. if this wasn't true, there wouldn't be an updated version of the software just for 64bit). you can't use v4 in 64bit and even if you could, you couldn't use the v5 driver with it. if you want developement, it will cost and someone has to pay the cost. even if S|C wanted to and was willing to absorb the cost of developement, there wouldn't be enough money in the company for it. those who want the upgrade must pay.

any further details will need to come from S|C.

For the first question, me and others (see http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29389 for reference) have been (or are) running v4/4.5 on win7 32bit.

I think it is important to note though, that Sonic Core most likely will not offer any support for that set-up, so any problems you encounter will be at your own risk. If you want official support on a vista/win7 level, you need to go v5 or higher. And v4/4.5 on Vista is a no-go.

that said, i did not encounter any problems running 4 on win7, neither has any problems with that set-up been reported here as far as i know.

so there you go. win7 32bit computers need no upgrade at all.

garyb wrote:so there you go. win7 32bit computers need no upgrade at all.

Exactly - thats why I was suprised there was such a fuss about it in the first place. The issue is **only** for Scope 4.0 users wanting to go 64 bit.

For users wanting to run Scope 4.0 on Win7 32 bit, run the installer in XP SP3 compatibility mode. ( It works but not directly supported by S|C ).

Anyway thanks for the info GaryB and Next To Nothing, Im thinking to use it to make some sort of compatibility chart for PCI users coming to ask, hopefully definitive once and for all answer (with consensus and a disclaimer that it's not the S|C official word) we can just point them to.

It seems unlikely to me why S|C should spend any time bringing 4.0 users to 64 bit but I need to come up with some wording that puts that in some sort of reasonable perspective.

dante wrote:...The Yamaha SW1000XG which cost me about the same price as a Luna the year prior wouldn't even run on XP. ...

A little off-topic, I know, but since you mention it; for info, Yamaha did release XP drivers for the SW1000XG card. I have one on a second machine and it still runs fine on XP here.

Evenin' chaps.

Any sign of "The Return Of The Midi Clock" in the latest 64 bit dwiver?

ns