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Levees ? Levees?

We the Dutch are experts with these little bumps! Why did nobody ask us for help ?
Hope the American people don't thing the world is letting them down now.
Again , why arn't they asking for some support?
Well , good of us we already send a marine ship for support and expertise. Hope the rest of the world is sending help too, ithout being asked that is.

Be strong people of New Orleans!

actually, there WAS a plan to use the dutch example. gwb cut the funding although FEMA called the new orleans dikes the number 3 (or so) most dangerous potential disaster in the usa.

the same administration has also said it does not need help from anyone. so if we CAN take care of this, why haven't we? why has a FEMA official stated that fixing the levee is the first priority and rescuing people is second? the city is already flooded, fixing the dike won't change that. many people are still alive, they can be saved NOW. the army and national guard are not letting private individuals enter the area to help, so it's up to the government.

the mayor of new orleans has spoken out against the treatment of the people in his city(scroll down to "mayor angry"):
http://www.local6.com/weather/4887230/detail.html
[quote]
Mayor Angry

The once-glorious city of New Orleans is in ruins and its people in chaos from Hurricane Katrina.

For those who sought refuge in the New Orleans convention center, it became just another part of the nightmare. There are reports of rapes, beatings and fights in the convention center, where at least 15,000 people have sought safety.

Police Chief Eddie Compass said hotels have sent away their tourists and the displaced people are "walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

But when he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, they were driven back by a mob. He said, "They were beaten back within 30 feet of the entrance."

Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans, is seething over what he sees as the government's slow response to his city's disaster.

Nagin went on WWL Radio Thursday night to say the feds "don't have a clue what's going on." He added, "Excuse my French -- everybody in America -- but I am pissed."

Nagin said that there are many drug addicts who are searching for a fix. He said that's why they are breaking into drug stores and hospitals.

"What you are seeing is drug-starving, crazy addicts that are wreaking havoc and we don't have the manpower that we can deal with it," Nagin said.

Nagin is angry, and wants people to flood the offices of the president and the governor with letters calling for help. He thinks not enough is being done to help the evacuees.

"Get off your a---s and let's do something and let's fix the biggest g-----n crisis in the history of this country," Nagin said. "People are dying. They don't have homes, they don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same. And it's time."

The mayor said he needs troops and hundreds of buses to get evacuees out.

He said that it was laughable that some officials had mentioned possibly having school bus drivers brought to New Orleans to help with the evacuation.

"I'm like, 'You have got to be kidding me.' This is a national disaster, get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their a---s to New Orleans," he said. "This is a major, major, major deal."

Nagin accused state and federal officials of "playing games" and "spinning for the cameras." He said he keeps hearing that help is coming, but "there's no beef."

He called for a moratorium on press conferences. He said he doesn't want any more press conferences there until there is actual manpower on the ground helping his city. He said that he is tired of hearing that thousands of troops are on their way because they are just not there.

On Thursday, Nagin issued a "desperate SOS" on behalf of the thousands who are stranded at the convention center. He also gave the go-ahead for them to march across a bridge to a dry area of the city and look for whatever relief they could find. [/unquote]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-03 02:38 ]</font>

On 2005-09-02 21:32, narly wrote:

On 2005-09-02 19:38, hubird wrote:
this is planetz, remember?

Retracted.

Sorry - I keep forgetting that dissenting viewpoints are often frowned upon by the bulk of the contributors to this forum

Dude it's not about dissenting viewpoints - it's the fact that if I call your president a stupid monkey, you take it as a personal insult somehow and start throwing personal insults back. Weird logic I must say.

As I said before, you're a human being, not a political cheerleader.

IMHO this situation is symptomatic of the systematic hammering of the poor and black communities in the USA. This is why there is so much rage at what has happened.

On one hand Americans are urged to be united behind their president in the 'war on terror' but on the other hand, many decent people must really wonder what the hell they are fighting for. Drugs are still flooding poor areas, there are lots of guns available and there's a lot of resentment, unemployment and depression.

If you systematically dehumanize huge sections of the population with the notion that they simply ain't worth shit because they are poor black scum - perhaps these words aren't used by the politically correct politicians but their actions speak volumes - if you treat them like animals, how can it surprise you that some of them behave like animals?

I must add that it's a very small section of people that allow themselves to let go of their humanity. I've heard stories of many decent people desperately trying the 'impress' the authorities by sweeping up rubbish etc, in the hope that they might actually touch down in their helicopters and deliver some relief supplies.

I remain most interested Darkrezin in who you think is a good leader, or which government does get it right.

Spirit - Read previous threads which we have engaged in to find my already-given answer to your ridiculous question.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-03 06:23 ]</font>

It's nice that someone in the public eye dared to say what the world is thinking:

http://www.zebrality.com/media/2005/kanye.avi

You might say he did that for publicity but if anything his honesty about his opinions will probably see him lose a lot of sales. I don't really like Kanye's style of hip-hop but I can't deny I have a lot of respect for him now - that takes a lot of bollocks IMHO.

On 2005-09-02 21:32, narly wrote:

On 2005-09-02 19:38, hubird wrote:
this is planetz, remember?

Retracted.

Sorry - I keep forgetting that dissenting viewpoints are often frowned upon by the bulk of the contributors to this forum

ROFL! Come on now! "I dont have to explain to you because you're an idiot" is not a dissenting view - it's a personal insult.

Post whatever views you want here. Have a sense of humor and perspective too - don't be afraid to admit you have lots to learn. I certainly do.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Liquid Len on 2005-09-03 06:56 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Liquid Len on 2005-09-03 06:55 ]</font>

On 2005-09-02 13:11, krizrox wrote:
I openly apologize for previously rude comments made. That was uncalled for. I'm sorry.

And I apologize for the harsh tone I took with you as well.

Getting back specifically to your statements - they made no sense. And you're

To each his own. Your 'antiamerican' comments didn't make much sense to me either. Why would anyone despise americans, or nigerians, or chinese, or...?

To blame the Fed's or anyone else at this point is just silly. There is no one to blame. Better dams or whatever would have had virtually no impact from what I can

Incompetence and neglectfullness, if any exist in this scenario, cannot be assigned solely to the Bush government. I'll grant you that.

humanity a favor - donate a few bucks to the Red Cross or any organization that helps the sick and needy. Do something

I absolutely agree with this and respect what you are saying!

I am sure you all have good points, and with all this information we could get a general picture. But clearly, the problem is not politics…

The problem is HUMAN BEINGS BEHAVIOUR!!!!!!!!!!

Believe it or not, we are facing up tremendous natural disasters! If you have heard so far about disasters taking 30 to 40 thousand peoples lives through earthquakes, floods, etc., get ready, because numbers are to change. Unfortunately our next generation of natural disasters is going to get millions of lives, simply because the magnitudes of the disasters we expect in the following 20 years, surely, are going to be without precedents, the biggest in millions of years. Scientists with access to certain laboratories around the world know very well about this fact and are prohibited by governments to tell people about this reality, as would cause mass hysteria.

The PROBLEM is not the earth itself either, is not nature, but the rape, the outrageous violation we have done to it! The abuse and exploitation of 150 monstrous years of over misuse of natural resources! The problem is human GREED! The problem is the psychological infection human beings have gone through under an extremely materialist and cynic way of living. The problem is our supposed superiority over nature and its laws, over animals, plants, water, earth, insects, air, etc. The bills are already extended! All this madness is started to be paid by force, with the same violence we forced nature! We have already destroyed the earth with our poison; it’s already too late to mend the damage. All we can do now, is learning from our own stupidity and luck of introspection, vision and most of all, love.

Many extremely important ecosystems have been destroyed, thousands of species have disappeared, and many are in vanishing right now. What do we really know about nature? Answer: very little indeed! But our “super-modern-proud-civilization believes to be over the top”. How ignorant we when we believe to be MORE intelligent than nature! Even aborigines thousands of years ago, knew that nature should NOT be transformed or degenerated in any way, but used with respect and love. Many super civilized anthropologists full of pride and carrier awards have laughed at the “supposedly superstitions” knowledge of the ancients, of those aboriginal populations also raped and destroyed, but today they have to face the amazing truth that they were not idiots after all, but right.

One thing is sure:

All this tremendous disequilibrium caused to nature is going to pay off. We have sown it, and we are starting to rape the results.

Our LACK OF LOVE for our fellow humans and nature is destroying us, not politics. I think we are already mature enough as acivilization, to stop with the foolish believe that politics is “the answer” and that it has anything whatsoever to do with human wellbeing! Politics is and will continue to be business and interests of the big fish.

The problem of mankind, of all of us, is our tremendous lack of spirituality. Ego has replaced ethic values and we are simply destroying each other, completely asleep by the machine that is swallowing us.

As MLK said: “The only way to stop evil is giving “good” for “evil”.

On 2005-09-02 16:07, garyb wrote:

On 2005-09-02 16:01, Spirit wrote:
Why don't I pre-empt some of the conspiracy theory nutters and offer the end-point in this train of thought ? It'll save so much time...

ensuring federal funds will be generously given to the US oil industry (Bush's friends) for reconstruction.

actually, of all the things "nutters" could come up with, this is the one sure bet.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mp ... ss/3335685

I'd just like to add, in case it wasn't clear in my posts before, that this situation isn't about black vs. white, it's about the rich elite vs. everyone else. Poverty just happens to be very common for black people, due to a lack of opportunity and ingrained racism.

I really hope for the sake of my friends and family in the US that this situation in New Orleans does not represent the start of something profoundly bleak for the whole population. At the moment it's not looking good.

For anyone who hasn't yet got the message - there are no evil black snipers shooting at rescue planes. Even the FAA has not released any details of any aircraft being shot at. This is purely and simply a nice excuse to withold evacuations, no doubt as some kind of sick data-gathering exercise for future urban warfare against the common population. It is also a nice excuse to kill a few black people. That redneck Bush must be licking his lips with glee as the combat troops move in.

The Bush government has set up something rather fiendishly clever. The next time anything happens - be it a natural disaster, riots, anti-war protest or terrorist attack - the whole population of the USA are going to cheer as the death squads move in. All they have to do to justify spraying innocent people with bullets is to plant a few agent provocateurs in the crowd and sacrifice a few soldiers. A police state is so much easier to sustain if you have the backing of the people who are under a mass hallucination. You can't get anything this surreal on the weirdest acid trip.

So Darkrezin's troop of on-the-ground reporters, satellite surveillance photos and helicopters reveal the truth at last !

You seem better informed than most government agencies. So in light of your revelations I'll immediately dismiss dozens of first-hand reports from people who were there.

Keep going though Dark, it's most entertaining to see you squash and squeeze every world event into your depressing political philosophy.

Oh yes, the comfortable ones would like to avoid "depressing" things at all costs.

The Halliburton thing sits alright with you, Spirit?

well, reports of gunshots are certainly exxagerated. that said, there are certainly guns in the hands of hooligans and lunatics. i know this because a close friend has relatives in new orleans' charity hospital, the one that gunmen attempted to hijack(the gunmen were trapped on a floor) and he spoke to them yesterday. the FACT is the government is not allowing anyone in or out of the city and is dragging it's heels rescuing people. if there was a WILL to sacve these people, it would have been done days ago. it's estimated that there are 250,000 people trapped there. france offered water purification and other assistance. turned down. venezuela offered discount oil. turned down. 30% of imports go through gulf ports which are shut down. 20% of america's oil refining capacity is there, shut down. new orleans uninhabitable for at least 1 year or maybe forever. it might as well have been an atom bomb.....i know that some would be happy to see the american economy collapse, this can do it. i'm hoping that the powers that be choose a different route. i'd like to be able to continue to pay my mortgage.

the first step is to save the people. then after the people are saved, the next step is to save everyone else, so that 250,000 refugees can put their energy into something positive....

On 2005-09-03 21:24, Spirit wrote:
So Darkrezin's troop of on-the-ground reporters, satellite surveillance photos and helicopters reveal the truth at last !

You seem better informed than most government agencies. So in light of your revelations I'll immediately dismiss dozens of first-hand reports from people who were there.

Keep going though Dark, it's most entertaining to see you squash and squeeze every world event into your depressing political philosophy.

It's just as entertaining (although in a very depressing way of course) to see your ignorance still flowing.. the levees of your mind perpetually breached to the shit-infested propoganda that is fed to us

It must be great to live in a mindset where nothing is depressing or hard to deal with. Just like Georgie Bush - he really does hate bad news, it's just so annoying.

Gary - yep, my point was that to say that all rescue attempts are being thwarted by gunshots is utterly ridiculous. There may be a few people who don't know any other way to behave, as their distrust of the authorities has been utterly vindicated. The gunshots thing is being seized on and overplayed by every racist idiot to justify why these people should be left to die.

I just think it's rather pathetic. It's not even as if these people have heavy anti-aircraft artillery or something - it's semi-automatic pistols and perhaps maybe an Uzi.

Any government/law enforcement agency that uses pistol fire as an excuse not to go into the area to save people simply is not doing its job.

I caught an interesting bit of newscast on TV the other night - on CSPAN. There was a press conference with a certain Lt. Gen from the US Army Corps of Engineers. He was answering the difficult questions from reporters (and believe me they asked the hard questions). Of course, one of the top questions on everyone's mind is the levees in New Orleans. Why were they designed the way they were and why weren't they designed to withstand a Cat 5 storm?

This Lt. Gen put it into pretty good perspective: Some of the best civil engineering minds in the country worked on those levee designs. A decision was made (based to some extent on probability and outcome as well as simple economics) to build the levees to withstand only up to Cat 3 (or something to that effect). Based on their probability estimates, there was like only a half a percent chance that New Orleans was ever going to be hit with anything above a Cat 3 storm. Sadly, as we all know now, that half a percent can be a bitch.

This Lt Gen also stated what seemed pretty obvious to me from the git go - that even if they had designed the levees to withstand Cat 5, there is a good probability that would not have made much of a difference in this case.

And finally, this insightful person made one more interesting observation that had me nodding in agreement: You know - people live where people choose to live in spite of the inherent dangers. He mentioned the entire west coast as a good example. There is going to be a nice big earthquake there someday that is probably going to cause more damage and devastation than what happened in New Orleans. They've been predicting that since I was a child. The fact that it hasn't happened yet is almost a mystery (and of course a blessing). And yet, people choose to live there anyway.

Chicago got flooded out big time some years back because of a hole in the Chicago river. There are areas here in the suburbs that always seem to flood out whenever we get more than a few inches of rain. And yet people choose to continue to live in those areas in spite of the risks. Florida - good grief don't even get me started.

Anyway - living on the edge is what it's all about to many of us ain't it? We wouldn't want it any other way. If I want to build my house on the side of a volcano, by god I'm going to build it there. And if the volcano eruptes, I want to be able to scream bloody murder that the government didn't do enough to protect my house from hot boiling lava. And then I want the rest of humanity to chip in and bail me out financially and build me a new house on the side of the same volcano.

It's funny, here in Chicago, in winter time, if a blizzard is predicted, salt trucks are lined up on the side of highways 24 hours before, the precious traffic flow must not stop at any cost. Why nothing was done in advance of this hurricane? The sattelite picture was pretty clear. The hurricane covered the entire Gulf of Mexico. The people were given orders to evacuate because the government knew very well the levees would not last, as we now learn painfully. Why didn't the government send the buses then? They knew people are poor and without means of transportation.

It's hard not to point the fingers but in this case the government is the institution that has the responsibility and juristiction over the city. That's what we are paying taxes for, no? For the government to protect us, right? And Bush is the fucking commander in chief, if there was another person more qualified to help its citizens I'd blame him.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2005-09-04 09:05 ]</font>