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This thread is for rational people who enjoy music without ascribing it's powers to aliens, gods, or other imaginary beings in the sky.

It offends me to no end that people refer to acoustic instruments as real instruments thus inferring that synthesizers are not real.

It is difficult to get change. New ideas have often been ridiculed. Some of the greatest composers got bad reviews of works which now are generally thought of as masterpieces. There was a time when to be a musician you had to work either for the King or the church or both. I am so happy that kings and churches don't hold the power they once did, but the church still has way more power than it deserves!

Times change, cultural systems change, but God stays the same.

You seem to forget that those that sought money and power over the course of history merely hijacked whatever social movement which was prominent at the time (the Church for example was a pretty underground and subversive movement in its heyday ) in order to further its own ends.

I think you'll find that nowadays the mask is different, but the end result is the same. Try to look a bit further for the truth than the logical place your anger leads you to. You may make some progress then

I don't mean to offend, but just telling it how I see it.

peace

Ken, you're right (see below)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-09-07 16:22 ]</font>

I don't see the point in taking this religious split... on a forum about music? I think it's just not the right place to do it. I'd suppose there's no problem for such threads to exist, but both this thread, and eliam's thread may be better off if it didn't flourish into a heated debate. Either way, the line between the two is only going to cause problems, and it's not worth the trouble as long as this is a music forum.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-09-07 16:26 ]</font>

Sadly the concentration of power is still in the hands of a very small part of humanity, democracy is mostly a spectacular play, gods have changed, but are not better than the old ones.

God in the traditional christian form is a higher form of Mind (knowledge, willing power), something that is good to conform to, to wich any personal issue must be adapted. It's easy to see what monstrous power is in the hands of those that are considered keepers of the revelation, that say who god is and what does he want.

So the religious differences just express the different tricks that the priests all over the world create to keep the social control.

The funniest thing that I notice that in our "western world", religion, that is properly defined from the latin "religio" as "way of life", in the sense of church, is just a simulation, another spectacular comedy of good wishes in the most greedy and selfish and far from christian ideals piece of world.

So is funny how the same people that in the sixties could be easily be part of hippy movement, or express their desire of justice in radical and marxist movements, today can find in god the icon of an identity in opposition with the system.

It's all a matter of identity to feel confortable with, a narcisistic behaviour. Somehow religion is a fig leaf, while the "REAL" gods dictate their laws to the consumers=citizens.

Yeah Ken, i'm almost thinking the same thing. I have real doubt that this thread, (or the other opposite one), will lead to any good.

People's will talk and argue. Some will probably benefit, since it force you to some kind of thinking. But in the end, what will it change? Not much.

Everything happen inside. The atheist is right. The beliver also. There is no absolute truth.

I must say that I am absolutely optimistic about these discussions and I personally welcome any peaceful sharing, whatever they might be! I understand the reserves of some people, but I trust the general good vibe of this forum to handle these "debates" as harmoniously as can be!

braincell, I really hold no grudge toward you and I don't think that you do either in your Heart, so let's rejoice together and stay out of each other's shoes!

I don't really see a matter of division with these 2 seemingly opposed threads, I find it rather amusing and I had a good laugh when I saw this one! cmon, we've discussed many off topic subjects, maybe not as deep as this, but it certainly serves a purpose! Otherwise it wouldn't be there!

Cheers to all and let the good vibes take care of it all!

Be at peace

See my comments in the "Constructive thread about God" thread.
EDIT - no need to - I've copied them below.

Braincell - your stance seems slghtly softer than last year
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... orum=31&47

I agree with Ken that this isn't the right site to get into heated debates about religion in any form. Bear in mind that "religion" does not mean faith either - don't confuse the two.
I remember last year feeling that I had "upset the site" by wishing everyone a Merry Christmas. That alone stimulated a very heated thread on "religious" matters.
You will not get answers if you continue this thread. You will only get personal opinions that cannot be swayed in a setting such as a text based forum.
It would be a great shame to lose sight of the friendship that exists between ALL members of this site by arguing on a subject such as religion. Let's face it, there is no answer, because the answer is FAITH only and that cannot be proven or quantified.
Let's step back a minute and look at how this thread could go (off the top of my head)
1: Anger at the organised church - justifiable for many (hopefully there are no abused choirboys here)
2: Anger at the organised church regarding wealth and power
3: Definition of a "religious" person (I go to the toilet religiously when I get up in a morning )
A recent census in Great Britain (held every 10 years)saw 76% of the population say that they were Christian - total crap! Only 3% go to church and of them, many are pew fillers - the real number of real Christians in Britain is about 1%. So what will you argue on that count?
As an example - my father is a lapsed Roman Catholic. He is now somewhere between atheist and fatalist. I bet that he put himself as a Christian on the census and I expect that he will call for a priest when he is on his deathbed (insurance).
The other 75% may say "I believe in God". So what - nobody believes in God more than Satan and look where it got him!!
Many people use God as an emergency service - 911 for police, fire, paramedics & prayer to God when things get rough in their lives.
4: Arguments about different faiths because we come from all over the world? You won't get answers to that either.
I have a particular complaint that in Britain, we concede everything to ethnic minorities. Wait a minute - that is not being racist - I'm not. Every programme on TV has someone saying "Oh My God" or other similar blasphemies - which believe you me, really offends someone with faith. Nobody cares. Now, if that TV programme said "By Allah" or similar, there would be hell to pay and complaints would pour in.
So you won't be able to argue different faiths and get an answer either.
5: The role of the church in politics
6: The role of the organised church in wars (Bob Dylan - "With God on our side").
7: Homosexuality in the organised church, or acceptance in any church (gay bishops).

OKAY - the list is endless and all you are doing is opening up a stage for everyone to voice a personal opinion, an unshakeable opinion mostly, about a lot of subjects that may or may not have something to do with God.

I really believe that if you let this thread run you will create disharmony in the ranks of us music folks and that is the last thing that we want.
You are in danger of alienating current friends (in your own mind). In a way, each of us will create their own "DXL's" and that will create an attitude and mood that cannot be repaired.

All of you who are familiar with my texts and musical uploads (if they can be called music ) will know that I am a fully committed Christian. The music I write is often gospel based and to the credit of everyone - you comment on the music and production, not the story.
I have taken time out in my career in the past to work for inner city missions.
I have spoken at services.
Etc Etc Etc.
So I feel that I know what I am talking about. No, I'm no angel - I'm one of the lads just like yourselves. Ask Chris Werner how totally (ab)normal I am
My remit from the Bible is to convert people, but this is NOT the place to do that or to try that. In previous threads I have stated that I will not push anything but you can bombard me with emails if you wish for me to share my faith. I will not do it on this site. I simply ask that you accept and respect my faith.
Now, I would argue that I have perhaps one of the deepest faiths amongst members on this site, so I am going to boldly suggest that, as Ken rightly says, this thread should go no farther.
Eliam, it isn't worth it.
The thread will not work.
Time out for off-topics is healthy in that we can SHARE something other than music.
SHARING is healthy, often good fun, and for most of the off-topic discussions, answers are achieved. If we have a "religion" off-topic, you will not SHARE. You will DEFEND your own point of view. You will SPLIT the membership (or run the risk of splitting it) and you will never recover the harmonious balance that exists amongst us.
I'm sure that John Cooper would not be for a topic such as this either.
C'mon guys - lighten up. Drop the thread.

And finally, for any of you who do have a faith and think that this thread should proceed, remember this:

"Preach the Gospel at all times, and if neccessary - use words" (St Francis of Assisi).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neil B on 2003-09-08 03:14 ]</font>

Everybody has the right to express themselves fully as long as there is sincerity and serious respect to each other, and of course, assuming that the conversation is truly constructive searching mutual understanding. Any comunity, as such, should be able to do this at its very least, if we were not capable of holding a sincere and clean conversation we would be very inmature people and so the conversation would be also totaly usless, because without sincerity and good will behind it, there is no such a thing as understanding.

I don't believe in discusion, but dialog. If we can build a constructive dialog, it doesn't matter what we talk about, the result will worth the try. Precopceptions of any kind are never a good point of depart for somebody looking to grow innerly. I don't feel having the right to ask Eliam nor Braincell to leave their thoughts closing their threads, I don't think I have the moral aothority to do so. I think they have the right to think as freely as they want to, of course, I have also to say they must entirely assume THEIR OWN RESPONSABILITY towards the feelings of their readers, whatever this may become by the end of the thread. Let people take their own responsability, if you don't you are refraning them from developing themselves, as you whould, not letting your child going up to a tree because of the danger he may fall down... but loosing the great advantage of developing his musles, personality and Spirit as a human being enjoying nature.

Nobody can determine what is good or what is bad for someone else... Good and Evil are extremely subjective views most of the time due to the fact that every single person is based on their own interest and subjective perceptions, so Good is what is CONVINIENT and Evil is what is NOT CONVINIENT in a given moment, when things turn to the opposite direction, good becomes evil and evil becomes good.

A topic by itself, can "never" be at blame, but us, people, cos topics do not develop by themselves..., we develop them writing.

Please, allow me to ask everybody before pressing your "Enter" key to post something, to be sure you are being sincere to yourself and us as well as respectful to everybody's way.

I would trully love to participate in such a deep conversation, as long as everybody would just completely let out all preconceptions, ideas, believes, non-believes, cultural backgrounds, traditions, religions, politics, own personality, frustrations and fears, other people throughts as being ours, economical status, nationality, etc., and because I know this is imposible, I will not participate nevertheles, I will rather c ontinue my own personal work over my own subjectivity, preconceptions, fears and frustrations, because my subjectivity is enormous andI have much work to do over myself.

If we were to be just as little children are, with no thoughts in our heads, with no preconcived ideas... just open to what is going on and very attentive to the new, we would just see "WHAT IT IS" as it is... If we were able to see each other eyes feeling happiness, just loosing ourselves within each other's nature as real friends, this conversations would probably not even need to take place, because we would feel intuitively what is goin on within such and such a person... If we could just sit down to watch without absolutely no preconceptions of any kind, life would speak by itself and nobody would neet so much thinking and speaking to reach such simple facts that are more than evident in nature.

Unfortunately, we are not like little children..., we are adults with hard cristalized minds, we tend to speak without thinking much about what we are saying and in the other hand, we do not leasten at all to what others may tell us.

Finally, I would like to say that you don't know the people behind thsi writings, so please, do not judge so easely each other before even getting to know each other in real life... You know very well it is very difficult to know oneself, so how much difficult would it be to know somebody else you don't see but as a virtual screen?

hey, I'm just surprised, and very glad it's turning out the way it is. huh, you guys are right, we're all reacting really mature about discussing this. This is super cool.

yeah, thanks Neil for the words of concern in advance, so the discussion doesn't turn in an unpleasant direction.
I admit being rather sceptic, too, when I first saw both threads 'opposed' under each other, but they look complementing now.

cheers, Tom

Eliam,

I know you are a good guy. I just feel the need to counter the daily barrage of superstition everywhere in the media including the web. Most of us know that astrology, numerology and tarot cards are bogus and fake but for some reason god or a higher power seems to be an obvious fact for many. Why it is obvious when there is no proof goes way beyond my ability to comprehend.

Ken,

This is an off topic section of planetz. I continue to enjoy your posts regarding music or anything else.

I agree completely with you about tarot, numerology and all such psychic stuff, but it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Cosmic Universal Order of things. Anyway, if you want to try to turn people away from the Light of God because you mix things up, that's your karma, but the consequences of trying to influence God's children and have them reject the Truth of a Higher Divine Intelligence and Understanding governing the Universe are extremely severe. If you knew what's at stake and the "karmic" price to pay for such nonsense, you'd possibly be doubting for yourself in silence, but you'd leave others alone when it comes to their own spiritual path and birthright to happiness (those 2 are the same thing).

I say it again to save you much suffering: please, leave alone those who choose to worship their God of Love as they please and never try to interfere with that. I tell it because I love you, truly, but if you continue on this road then so be it, but you won't say you were not warned.

On 2003-09-12 20:27, eliam wrote:
I agree completely with you about tarot, numerology and all such psychic stuff, but it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Cosmic Universal Order of things. Anyway, if you want to try to turn people away from the Light of God because you mix things up, that's your karma, but the consequences of trying to influence God's children and have them reject the Truth of a Higher Divine Intelligence and Understanding governing the Universe are extremely severe. If you knew what's at stake and the "karmic" price to pay for such nonsense, you'd possibly be doubting for yourself in silence, but you'd leave others alone when it comes to their own spiritual path and birthright to happiness (those 2 are the same thing).

I say it again to save you much suffering: please, leave alone those who choose to worship their God of Love as they please and never try to interfere with that. I tell it because I love you, truly, but if you continue on this road then so be it, but you won't say you were not warned.

yikes!

"nonsense... doubting... in silence"???

eliam, what you simply are not grasping here is that if you want people to respect/ consider your position then you have to, in turn, respect/ consider the other people's positions... if this is not one's attitude upon entering a discussion, then what discussion will there be?

btw, the subject of your thread is not: "a back-slapping conversation about Jesus..."

and i feel pretty sure that the atheist camp here will give little heed to your "karmic warnings". what right have you to tell others to stifle their beliefs for the benefits of other beliefs?

again... yikes!

yeah,like you could fight/stop god!heeeheee

if god is omnipotent as claimed,then all is fine.do not fear (the/you) atheists!in this world,atheism is a political stand and it is valid.

it's funny how when it REALLY hurts though,the first cry beyond "maaamaaa!",is "why me god?"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-09-12 23:33 ]</font>

It's funny you should say that gary.. my atheism died around the same time that my faith in politics died.. take it from someone who has seen both sides:

politics is WAY more destructive than religion.

peace

My comment was only to prevent useless suffering.

It is no better to try to divert persons from God than it is to sell drugs to children.

Criticize me, call me names, I am unconcerned, I state a fact.

There is no fear involved here.

Yes but,

On 2003-09-12 20:27, eliam wrote:
but you won't say you were not warned.

This is stretching it a bit.

With all due respect for your beliefs Eliam, I think you should rephrase that because, by the implication of your own words, you disturb some people's harmony(thus your own), weak as it may seem to you.

Truth resides in everyone and everyone's Truth changes in time. I am not qualified to carry on a lengthy conversation on this topic but I believe that the only real Truth is Love. And screw all the mumbo-jumbo verbiage that only serve to justify individual truths.

Love never changes! It is the motive universal Power!

Thanks for your concern and your poise, Paul!

I know some of what I stand against, but I speak my Heart and to retract my statement would be dishonest from and for me, for I mean every word of it, exactly as I put it. And with which authority? With Love's authority, because I know too well that it a very serious matter and I just want to help and prevent useless suffering, if possible. Now, everyone's free to accept it or not.

OK i promised myself i'd stay out of these threads, but all this love stuff is getting to me . i just want to throw this into the melting pot of ideas. Did anyone see that BBC2 horizon programme on religion which was basically a theory (i'm NOT going to claim it as fact) that our brains create religion as part of the survival instinct? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml, but basically if this was true how would religions react to finding out there is no god, that it's just a thought process imbedded in our evolution? Could they still deny empirical evidence?

Mr A

<font size=-1.5>"He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"</font>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-09-13 09:10 ]</font>