Amateur/Pro

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:30 am

I saw some comments by Fripp I found interesting. He said that if you want to play for love, remain amateur. (Amo = love) That being a professional musician is about business.

Then there is the comment that man kills what he loves the most....the amateur musician being the prime example ( by making it his/her job).

Then there is the middle ground...semipro. Daytime regular income.....music at night or weekends.

I'm curious about the perspectives that come from Z on these points.........

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:38 am

Maybe I'm just lazy, but the only way I get things done fast is when it's for work. last night was on a very tight deadline and *had* to come up with something. In exactly 70 minutes I had a new track that did the job. (Mostly bolted together from loops I'd already made and have stored for just such ocassions).

Obviously when I listen to it there's lots of rough spots, but if I was doing that for my own entertainment, then it'd probably take me six weeks and it still wouldn't be finished !

So although I don't get to compose exactly what I want, the statisfaction is still there since I actually finish things.

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:15 am

I've read a lot of Fripp interviews. If you can get past all his intellectual ramblings, you'll usually find some nuggets of useful insight.

Anyway, I believe that if you love to play music and want to make a living playing music it can be done. Obviously, it's easier to go get a job flipping burgers (you might actually make more money doing that). But you probably won't be happy doing that. I make my living running a recording studio. I can tell you from my perspective, work is fun. This is the first job I've had in my life that I don't actually consider to be work. It can be a leap of faith to quit your day-time job to pursue musical interests but if you put your mind to it, it can be done. If you need to put food on the table and pay the bills, you will find a way to do it.

Sadly, most musicians don't have the head for business. They don't want to be bothered with that. They don't like dealing with bar owners or agents or whatever. They have no idea how to market themselves properly. It can take a year or two before you build up the momentum to sustain your craft as a business. But if you devote a few hours every day to the advancement of your musical career, you'll probably find that things will get easier and easier over time to the point where you can actually devote more time to your craft and less time to the business. It's a balancing act really.

Good topic. Let's hear more comments!

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:54 am

On 2003-11-10 09:15, krizrox wrote:

Sadly, most musicians don't have the head for business. They don't want to be bothered with that. They don't like dealing with bar owners or agents or whatever. They have no idea how to market themselves properly. It can take a year or two before you build up the momentum to sustain your craft as a business. But if you devote a few hours every day to the advancement of your musical career, you'll probably find that things will get easier and easier over time to the point where you can actually devote more time to your craft and less time to the business. It's a balancing act really.

How accurate are your words Krizrox... Definetely true. That is why there are so many abuses from comercial firms agains mucisians cos they are rather dull to deal wtih bussiness like people and ideas. I have also been one of those silly musicians and I to recognise... but I have never left out my own music, I mean, what I trully like. I have continued and still continue to do my own music. Music that will perhaps never be heard for anybody ever, but I here it. Even if this is not enough, for a matter of sanity and wellbeing, I need, desperately need to compose and express certain feelings and see them on paper, or sounding through whatever mean, but they must be.

Nevertheless, when time passes by, you start needing to settle a bit more, you need to take care of your wife, your health, you need a more relaxed life if posible... I have opened myself to the comercial world indeed, to be able to survive but never cos I enjoy it. I don't like bussiness like people in general, cos they are there not cos they like music or art, but out of covetousness, so they don't care about a thing, but money.

What has always kept us out of those fields is the couldness that surrounds all this things... they taste like "cucaracha" juice.

Thanks to the technological revolution, and having acces to tools like Cubase and Pulsar, I have started a completely new path in music creation, and could do everything without having the need to pay hundreds of dollars in studio and musicians, so this is why I could continue creating my own... otherwise this would be the path of all frustrations and nothing else.

Unfortunatelly for me, I can't play music I hate to earn a living. I've tryed, but I was so unsuitable cos of my feelings, that the whole group would feel I was ages away from there... I hate the idea of traveling all the time, from town to town, smailing in all sort of parties to entertain the mass, breath all sort of smokes, sleeping at watever time they ask you to, eating whatever food goes into your mouth, and... most of all... to have to play cheap music like some disgusting cumbias or badly arranged salsa, with a singer that makes your ears split in several pieces while your acoustic juices melt donw in your face! Bars where perhaps 1% of the public is leastening to what you are playing, the rest is just talking loud and getting drunk. I'm sorry, but the more the time went by, the less I can stand a life like this... I then preffer to work in something else, and then at the same time, to give myself the opportunity to do my own music, this is more an less what I'm doing at the time, while I also try doing some musics which are not of my own poket, but that I can compose the way I like, so I enjoy them much nevertheless. For instance, Trance. I've never liked trance music, but I've done a Trance CD nevertheless, and I like it very much. Perhaps it is sold one day.

I think we need to be very creative about our music, this way will always be happy having the moral strenth to keep going. I don't see myself ever leaving my musical composition, that would be like permuting love for hatred, or money for my mother, or lies for sincerity. I think you need to make yourself very clear before prociding your path, and when you have clear ideas, push hard in this direction till you succed, as Krizrox encourages us to do.

BTW, I have to thank you VERY MUCH for your words Krizrox, they have gave me some more fuel to keep going... thanks.

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:31 pm

"Unfortunatelly for me, I can't play music I hate to earn a living. I've tryed, but I was so unsuitable cos of my feelings, that the whole group would feel I was ages away from there."

I understand. I've been there too. It's kinda ironic isn't it. We'll shovel shit for a living for minimum wage but ask us to play something we don't particularly care for and it's like asking for a kidney or something.

You'd think it wouldn't matter what type of music - as long as you were getting paid. Oddly, I know plenty of musicians that are very happy to play any old thing as long as they are making money. They can stand there on stage with a big smile on their face and play complete and utter crap and pretend to enjoy it.

I remember there was a famous Elvis impersonator in the area that used to play to packed clubs and fests and toured all around the midwest in a nice motorhome. His band got all their own stage clothes and expenses paid. Yet he couldn't keep a stable band together because he couldn't find people that were as passionate about the music as he was. It wasn't enough for the band members to be able to play a few hours and make a decent wage. They wanted to "express themselves". There's no room for self-expression in an Elvis tribute band

The point is.... er.. uh... I forgot what the point was.

Oh yeah, I remember. The point is - keep a positive attitude about this stuff. Don't do something you can't stand. Find your niche and develop it. Make sure your significant other supports your musical endeavors. Devote at least an hour a day to the business - selling and marketing yourself. It does get easier - believe me! I'm living proof if you really want something bad enough and you don't give up, you'll achieve your goals. Just be careful what you ask for!

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:13 pm

I remember a tour in France, through rich hotels and so on, playing Tango with a singer I trully disliked. I'm not going to tell his name, that would be a bad thing to do.

We had to wear suits all the time, be there in front of most rich people on earth, paying an incredible amount of money to eath all sort of special see-food. The price per person was about 500 americal dollars... (!) Nevertheless, we were payed very little money to play... Again, people would be just eating but not paying attention to the music.

We were asked to smile while playing and we had to play standing up, every afternoon was the same thing, the same music... it really was a pain... The only good thing was to be able to go swiming to the see, but this is not a musical carrier, this is having hollidays. It is great for those people that can enjoy is as a perpetual holiday, but not everybody likes it. There are also those like me who preffer to do their own music.

I was surprised I was so unhappy playing music. Nevertheles, it is WAY different to compose music.

Composing, I can go werever you want me to go, I mean, I am able to compose any thing as needed, and I anjoy it, cos it is of my interest. Of course I preffer to compose something I feel, I like, but it is not a problem at all to compose anything for a short film, or a jingle, things like that. They are interesting nevertheless, but not playing in a band something you don't like, this is for me very painful.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:09 pm

I love Fripp more than any other guitarist and he is one of my favorite musician/composers of all time. One thing that makes him unique is that he created his own original style rather than using other peoples riffs which is is something that most guitarists are guilty of. Here is what I think of the blues and heavy metal:

... B-O-R-I-N-G!!!!!!!

My music got much better when I stopped trying to make money with it.

I too am guilty of sabatage. How many of us have lost the one we love due to youthful stupidity? Since I am so fond of Fripp I hope I don't have to take any drastic measures!

Then there is the comment that man kills what he loves the most....the amateur musician being the prime example ( by making it his/her job).

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:10 pm

Nestor asked me to share some additional comments about marketing and promotion.

(Nestor, if I misunderstood your comments, please correct me. But I think you were asking me to explain some of the ways to sell yourself and make money in music?)

Obviously, playing music you don't really like isn't the answer. You should really do some soul searching first. Decide what it is that you really like to do the most. Sounds like you guys like to compose. Let's concentrate on that for a moment.

If you want to make a living as a composer, you need to convince people to buy your songs. Some of my clients have sold songs to agents in New York who are constantly shopping for music for soap operas. The daytime soaps buy songs and then take maybe 10 or 15 seconds as background music. For that you get a really nice check in the mail and a request to send more stuff. Sometimes the agent will kinda describe the nature of the music the show is looking for. Other times it's just a vague request and it's up to you to interpret.

There are a lot of ways and avenues to sell songs. I can't comment on every country. I only know from my little geographical area but I would assume it works anywhere in the world.

I will tell one other thing: there is no better way to break the ice than meeting face to face with the person (or persons) responsible for buying the songs in the first place. Yes - this means that you will have to get in your car and drive to wherever that person is. Very few of these types accept unsolicited material. But if you can get your foot in the door, you have a very good chance of selling your tunes. At very least your odds will be better than just sending an unsolicited envelope in the mail and waiting for a phone call.

So I want all of you to devote one hour a day to this:

Find out where all the TV stations are in your area or country. Call them. Find out who is in charge of buying music for commercials, shows, whatever. Call that person. Or go find them. Don't take no for an answer. If they don't like one song, be prepared with another and another. Be polite and professional. Have your shit together before you go knocking on the door. You might not get another chance.

Check with dance schools who might need music.

Check with local DJ's who might be in a position to play one of you songs.

Check out Taxi (www.taxi.com)

Get business cards printed up

Get your website up and running and make it look halfway decent. I get a lot of business from my website. Get your website linked on other websites to drive traffic your way.

Contact some independent filmakers in your area. Maybe through a local university.

Definitely call every stinking recording studio in your area and introduce yourself and your music to them.

Rappers need beats and badly. You might not like rap music but beats can cost upwards of $500 per beat around here.

There are so many ways to market and promote yourself. Think of it like mental excersize. Just devote one hour a day to it. Do at least one thing every day to promote yourself. Even if it's just picking up the phone and calling someone. Work the phone. Telemarketers use the phone all day long. They work under the premise that if you call 100 people, one of those people might actually buy something. And it took you little effort (just pushing buttons on the phone).

I used to spam people (although I tend to avoid that now). But guess what? It worked! I'd send out 100 emails and maybe two or three people would respond. Took little effort.

Check into direct marketing. We have companies here in the US that buy and sell mailing lists. I can get mailing lists based on Musicians Friend customers. In fact, I can find out who in my area bought certain instruments from Musicians Friend. I can buy mailing lists from Guitar Center. Or any major publications - sorted by geographical area, age, sex (yes please), what type of credit cards they have, etc etc etc.

Send out some snail mail. Less annoying than spam I guess.

Hope this helps. Keep at it lads. You can do it!!!!!!!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2003-11-10 21:21 ]</font>

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:31 pm

Yes, you’re right Krizrox, this is what I was looking for, some extra ideas to pull out some of my own that may be workable in my area and situation.

Great list of points there Kriz! Thank you very much!

Perhaps the most obvious one, is the one I liked the most… the one of using “one hour” per day to just think about it. I never thought about it this way, and I can’t explain why, but it sounds sort of exiting to me.

I’m going to think with care about all those things… Cheers

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:18 am

Thanks for those viewpoints. All interesting comments. The comment on killing what you love by making it a job wasn't a Fripp comment. Came from elsewhere.

Obviously all people are different. There are those who should be professional musicians.... At the other end of the scale, there are those who just
love listening to others play.

Then from a business view, ANY business has to give people what they want, or they won't survive. Some players seem comfortable with that. Others can't do it.

I'm curious how Z people balance the realities ($$, relationships, etc) with their need to create and their ambitions for themselves and their music.
What is SUCCESS for you? Money..balanced lives..working fulltime in the music industry..improvement..a finished track...getting signed....etc

I'm re-evaluating my view. I'm curious to hear some other views.

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:50 am

On 2003-11-11 05:18, Mikka wrote:
Then from a business view, ANY business has to give people what they want, or they won't survive. Some players seem comfortable with that. Others can't do it.

The problem is that some people don't know what they want. They need you to explain it to them. It's up to you to create a situation (call it hypnotism if you want) where you tell them what they need and they agree and buy into it. Sometimes you have to be pretty quick mentally. You have to be able to read a person the moment you walk in the door. Some people are very good at this, some aren't.

Trying to balance business with pleasure can be difficult. Which explains why many musicians are divorced. Families and a career in music don't always mix well. You have to be willing to travel. I'm not entirely sure how succesful you can be if you aren't willing to travel about - at least within your geographical area.

If you're not willing to risk the loss of your significant other (and all your money in the process), then just do music as a hobby and go flip burgers. Or work at a music store. Or try to find something local that gives you some avenues or options to sell your music. You can sell CD's out of the back of your car. That's how MC Hammer got started (anyone remember him?).

Let's hear more. I like this discussion.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:04 am

I think one reason why some musicians pay the price with broken marriages and personal problems is not because o the music but because of them.

By that I mean that often it seems that the impulse to create comes from strong feelsings that otherwise can't find a release.

These same strong feelings may make them a volatile or depressed character. Or a drug taker, heavy drinker, womaniser, eccentric etc

---

To answer another point, I tried to "make it" for many years in a band going by the the "traditional" route of playing live, releasing records etc etc. Unfortunately I dodn't get very far - never far enough to stop my day job.

But as Kizrox says: many musicians are hopeless at marketing, and the band I was in was a classic example of that. We thought that we'd be "discovered" and wouldn't have to bother too much with all that other stuff.

But at the same time we insisted to play our own style of music at a time when that style was not mainstream: all electronic "electro-punk" style in the days before techno and DnB.

But in the past few years I have come at things from a different angle and now compose music, get paid pretty well and have a much bigger audience than in all those years of playing live.

Strange world.

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:47 pm

Thanks for all these comments. We all find different ways to work our craft. There are so many avenues outside of the industry mass marketing machine....they're just not all initially obvious.

Interesting comment by braincell re: taking the pressure off. We are all so different. Its up to each of us to define success for ourselves. The happiest win.

Billy goat gruff · Post by **Billy goat gruff** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:49 pm

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:21 pm

you NEED to make money in the city.you don't ALWAYS have to do awful things for it.sounds like a bad attitude.....

speaking of bad attitudes,it's bullshit to blame the making of art for the destruction of artists.it's a very romantic story,sensitive guy suffers for his art.peoples' art when they are happy is bullshit.these ideas are great marketing but when he who is marketed starts to believe his own hype,it is only the profitable destruction of the artist.one does NOT have to be a jerk to be an artist of value.life is plenty hard enough already,extra suffering is only extra damage.

if one can make money from one's art,it will take the same skills that are used to make money with one's back,mind or body.timely behavior,respect,a good attitude,reponsibility and the effort to keep one's word are the basics of business.(as opposed to thuggery and other mafia behaviors,which are substituted for business in this life...)

now, if only musicians were paid reasonable wages,one would see more professionals(in this part of the world anyway).the automobile and the perception that listening to music is a waste of valuable time that could be making more money(can't have people always having places to stop and listen)don't really encourage one to starve one's self to get something rolling.it's kinda like opening an ice cream store in a land with no ice.

the funny thing is,no one can do ANYTHING in the city without music.too bad for us,the processes that make it possible to make a living also make us irrelevant,they're called recording and synthesis.

hey, it's all good!but let's save the tortured stuff for the audience.there's no business like show business like no business i know!everything about it is appealing.everything the critics will allow.nowhere can you get that special feeling,when you are taking your bow.

on with the show.

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:45 am

I wanted to throw this in.

http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/bandtips.htm

I suspect this musician has lots of experience...uh huh.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikka on 2003-11-12 08:13 ]</font>

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:13 pm

Goes to show that a bunch of amateurs taking advantages of each others' strong points can make them turn pro if they stick to it and are lucky enough to be discovered.

coc999 · Post by **coc999** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:17 pm

15 years of a strange road...
when i was 18 i dream to be a great dj.
25 I am not a great dj but i mix ,
After I dream to produce , first loops atari...pulsar(thanks) i wanted to do the best track of the world

, i am still not a great producer but i release 2 vynils this month 8 years after , My new trip will be maybe singing ...ahhh See you all in 10 years ...
But i agree movement and energy are necessary to promote your work , believe in what you do and your sound .For me i live a little miracle i re-meet in a party an old 12 years friend who recreate a new label in plus of his broadcast activity.He is a great music lover ...and artist , we have another friend who is doin the distribution...in a sens he do the promotion at same time than for some other bigger artists that he distributes.And i forget the friend who is doin mastering in another studio

Now 15 years after the chain is complete to do only music with a nice team...Home studio , Studio,Mastering,Distribution .
And i am still not a professionnal and technician of music but who knows i can dream of and activate my ass

i am still blablating too much and have so much to learn haha.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:01 pm

... learning by doing ! that's the way

Post by **hubird** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:49 am

On 2003-11-12 15:17, coc999 wrote:
...i release 2 vynils this month 8 years after...

congrats COC999, with the releases!
I heard them folks, and they are realy cool!
cheerz!