"most users are likely individuals who would not have bought the album even in the absence of file sharing"
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news ... ewsID=8303
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf
New Proof That File Shairing Doesn't Hurt Sales
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hubird
hm, I downloaded never ever one single album, and I never buy one 
In fact, if I like to listen to some music, mostly while cooking or doing my dishes, I choose an internet radio station.
Easy, surprising, instant, and every crazy style available.
Viva iTunes, try cathegory 'Ambient', really great, like others
To my opinion, I guess Braincell's suggestion in the link is true
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-04-05 19:04 ]</font>
In fact, if I like to listen to some music, mostly while cooking or doing my dishes, I choose an internet radio station.
Easy, surprising, instant, and every crazy style available.
Viva iTunes, try cathegory 'Ambient', really great, like others
To my opinion, I guess Braincell's suggestion in the link is true
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-04-05 19:04 ]</font>
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virtualstudio
- Posts: 451
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- Location: Terranova-Amsterdam
ok I have to admit I'm a thief, but then again I bought more albums from the bands that I found trough file sharing then I ever would, because some bands I never heard off before.
I still want the real thing in my hands not just the mp3 file on my computer so I go out and buy the CD and most of the times I buy some other CD's from that band also.
maybe I'm an exception but filesharing made me buy more music!
I still want the real thing in my hands not just the mp3 file on my computer so I go out and buy the CD and most of the times I buy some other CD's from that band also.
maybe I'm an exception but filesharing made me buy more music!
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siberiansun
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Sweden
true, same here but that's OUR generation. we're used to that "oh man i just bought a new record i can't wait to get home and listen to it" -feeling.I still want the real thing in my hands not just the mp3 file on my computer so I go out and buy the CD and most of the times I buy some other CD's from that band also.
kids today don't neccesary have that feeling as they're brought up with this easy accessability to new, and old, music via their home computer.
there's a risk that in a couple of years noone knows or remembers how it feels to BUY a brand new album.
i guess only time will tell but it just doesn't seem right to get someone's work for free.
unless that "someone" gives it to you
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: siberiansun on 2004-04-05 20:38 ]</font>
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virtualstudio
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- Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Terranova-Amsterdam
The study didn't cover software. I'm going to guess that the kids who download the cracked software get so much of it that they could never afford to buy it all.
An interesting analogy to file shairing is the public library. You can walk in and there is always a copy machine. The authors don't get paid a dime from the copies you make of their books. If it was easy and inexpensive to copy an entire book, I am sure they would remove the machines. That would be sad.
When public libraries were first indroduced here in the U.S.A., the publishing companies tried to stop them. I am glad they were not able to do this, but this time it seems that the government is not on the side of the people.
An interesting analogy to file shairing is the public library. You can walk in and there is always a copy machine. The authors don't get paid a dime from the copies you make of their books. If it was easy and inexpensive to copy an entire book, I am sure they would remove the machines. That would be sad.
When public libraries were first indroduced here in the U.S.A., the publishing companies tried to stop them. I am glad they were not able to do this, but this time it seems that the government is not on the side of the people.
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paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
I don't know about you guys but what if the internet did not exist? Bands like the Flower Kings would not sell CDs in North America. Aphex Twins would probably never sell anything but toilet paper(I think he is fabulous).
I will type this again:
Record sales statistics, be they up or down, are usually based on how many CDs Celine Dion and her lot sell in a year. Top Ten chart disposable crap is just that:DISPOSABLE. So what if the kids download it and listen to it a couple of days then press the delete button? It takes up far less space on shelves, doesn't it?
Record companies have to get with the program. The internet is here to stay and downloading tunes will happen. People who live only for money should go into selling land. Leave the music business to music lovers.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2004-04-07 12:57 ]</font>
I will type this again:
Record sales statistics, be they up or down, are usually based on how many CDs Celine Dion and her lot sell in a year. Top Ten chart disposable crap is just that:DISPOSABLE. So what if the kids download it and listen to it a couple of days then press the delete button? It takes up far less space on shelves, doesn't it?
Record companies have to get with the program. The internet is here to stay and downloading tunes will happen. People who live only for money should go into selling land. Leave the music business to music lovers.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2004-04-07 12:57 ]</font>
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virtualstudio
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- Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Terranova-Amsterdam
Yeah Paul that excactly one of the bands I was talking about (so also here in europe), I learned about them trough filesharing, now I own their records(cd's)On 2004-04-07 12:47, paulrmartin wrote:
I don't know about you guys but what if the internet did not exist? Bands like the Flower Kings would not sell CDs in North America.
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
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- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
My take on this is that I don't really care if filesharing hurts CD sales or not. Actually, I hope it kills CD sales. It's too much of a bloated industry anyway with excessive money mongers. Through filesharing, I think people can find new music, find rare music, etc. stuff that wouldn't have happened if it were a closed listening environment. If that means a dead unhealthy market, so be it. In return we have a more healthy consuming mass.
Actually, I think through file sharing, really good bands can shine, without the help of expensive distribution or PR. Bottom line is, there's so much crap being sold, digital domain is just the right medium. Is it crap? press delete. haven't lost a penny.
Actually, I think through file sharing, really good bands can shine, without the help of expensive distribution or PR. Bottom line is, there's so much crap being sold, digital domain is just the right medium. Is it crap? press delete. haven't lost a penny.
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Nestor
- Posts: 6683
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
I think we cannot put everything into the same bag, am referring to several aspects all together here, I’ll explain myself as clear as possible:
Two different approaches
I think we should distinguish clearly between those people that go around for the search of new, unknown music, from those who avidly want to just GATHER as much music as possible to sell it in the streets or to friends, or for commercial other purposes, they don’t care about music, but money. You’ll agree with me that these are completely different things. In the first example, you get around in the same way as you would in a big music shop listening to all sorts of things you have never heard in your life, perhaps finding out something that really suits your taste, and then you will buy it to own it. For me, this second approach is perfectly fine. The other guys are parasites to the musicians and to the world.
Here in Chile, there are hundreds of guys in the streets, selling copies of new releases, all the time… policeman goes around them walking and nobody says anything, and so, there are thousands and thousands of illegal CDs absolutely everywhere. This is happening in many other countries as much as in Chile. It is a problem that rises by the minute and it is virtually impossible to stop, due to the fact that anybody can manage to get a CDW today, cheap blank CDs, a cheap colour printer and start their own business.
***
About CDs
I personally don’t think that CDs are “bad” or “good”, but a mean for musicians to get their music heard. Of course, there are those who have taken extreme advantage of the
situation in music industry from 40 or more years ago, and have exploited musicians ever since… terribly! Nevertheless, CDs are great; it’s just their price and all the business-like speculation around them, which is unnatural and ridiculous. It is also ridiculous that a single musician could earn millions of dollars just for singing, it sounds me to a immense unbalance in the nature of things. Don’t take me wrong thinking I’m talking about communist thought and all this rubbish, not at all, neither think I would not like to be rich; what I would not like is to be disgustingly rich, which is not natural. There is just no need of such amount of money for a person to live very, very well nevertheless. Back to the point, CDs are as positive as any other good media to hold music.
***
In the other hand, there is “location”
Location is extremely important, it changes the perspective you many have, entirely. You may consider this: for people living in the UK it is so very easy to get a CD per week if they want to, they only need doing a very small scarify, and you can still find cheap CDs in all styles. Even poor people in this union of countries can afford to buy some music now and then. Something completely different is, for instance, the case of Argentina. There people cannot buy anything at all for leisure, they don’t even have enough to pay their rents, not everybody of course, but very many can’t. The perspective here is absolutely different. Those people will not buy even if they have the money to, because tomorrow they can be ill, or lose their jobs as easily as they got one last week, being again in the painful search for a living… What about so many other even poorer countries? There there’s not even the possibility to download a song!
Music “IS” important to keep going, to cheer yourself up, particularly if you are in problems and in a complicated economical situation. Music has “power” over emotions and does, straight-ahead, help people in their livings and in their coping quite often in poor countries, painful living. Please, don’t forget those who cannot afford to buy anything, as they need music as we all need it.
There is a great singer called Soledad, she’s Argentinean, she sings mostly folkloric music but in rather new ways, using modern instruments. She’s a real gifted voice and has already recorded many albums. She was asked: “So, what do you think about this terrible problem of illegal CDs in the street being sold everywhere in Argentina? We understand that your country has an illegal sell of 30%. How do you react to this? Blab bla and bla”. To what she answered: “You are wrong, it is not 30%, but 50% the amount of illegal CDs sold in Argentina, but I don’t care a bit about that… my people need music, and so they copy CDs to be able to hear it. If they don’t copy CDs they would not be able to have access to my music. People need music in their daily lives to keep cope, so I don’t mind, on the contrary”. (Please, understand words are as accurate as possible, but this is not a perfect translation, just enough for you to understand the conversation between the journalist and the singer).
I think this is quite a positive reference, to what music really is, a sincere expression from the hart of a person, for others to hear and enjoy. When money comes hard into play, music becomes more and more degraded and prices rises, it is the perfect combination for nonsense and no-art.
Two different approaches
I think we should distinguish clearly between those people that go around for the search of new, unknown music, from those who avidly want to just GATHER as much music as possible to sell it in the streets or to friends, or for commercial other purposes, they don’t care about music, but money. You’ll agree with me that these are completely different things. In the first example, you get around in the same way as you would in a big music shop listening to all sorts of things you have never heard in your life, perhaps finding out something that really suits your taste, and then you will buy it to own it. For me, this second approach is perfectly fine. The other guys are parasites to the musicians and to the world.
Here in Chile, there are hundreds of guys in the streets, selling copies of new releases, all the time… policeman goes around them walking and nobody says anything, and so, there are thousands and thousands of illegal CDs absolutely everywhere. This is happening in many other countries as much as in Chile. It is a problem that rises by the minute and it is virtually impossible to stop, due to the fact that anybody can manage to get a CDW today, cheap blank CDs, a cheap colour printer and start their own business.
***
About CDs
I personally don’t think that CDs are “bad” or “good”, but a mean for musicians to get their music heard. Of course, there are those who have taken extreme advantage of the
situation in music industry from 40 or more years ago, and have exploited musicians ever since… terribly! Nevertheless, CDs are great; it’s just their price and all the business-like speculation around them, which is unnatural and ridiculous. It is also ridiculous that a single musician could earn millions of dollars just for singing, it sounds me to a immense unbalance in the nature of things. Don’t take me wrong thinking I’m talking about communist thought and all this rubbish, not at all, neither think I would not like to be rich; what I would not like is to be disgustingly rich, which is not natural. There is just no need of such amount of money for a person to live very, very well nevertheless. Back to the point, CDs are as positive as any other good media to hold music.
***
In the other hand, there is “location”
Location is extremely important, it changes the perspective you many have, entirely. You may consider this: for people living in the UK it is so very easy to get a CD per week if they want to, they only need doing a very small scarify, and you can still find cheap CDs in all styles. Even poor people in this union of countries can afford to buy some music now and then. Something completely different is, for instance, the case of Argentina. There people cannot buy anything at all for leisure, they don’t even have enough to pay their rents, not everybody of course, but very many can’t. The perspective here is absolutely different. Those people will not buy even if they have the money to, because tomorrow they can be ill, or lose their jobs as easily as they got one last week, being again in the painful search for a living… What about so many other even poorer countries? There there’s not even the possibility to download a song!
Music “IS” important to keep going, to cheer yourself up, particularly if you are in problems and in a complicated economical situation. Music has “power” over emotions and does, straight-ahead, help people in their livings and in their coping quite often in poor countries, painful living. Please, don’t forget those who cannot afford to buy anything, as they need music as we all need it.
There is a great singer called Soledad, she’s Argentinean, she sings mostly folkloric music but in rather new ways, using modern instruments. She’s a real gifted voice and has already recorded many albums. She was asked: “So, what do you think about this terrible problem of illegal CDs in the street being sold everywhere in Argentina? We understand that your country has an illegal sell of 30%. How do you react to this? Blab bla and bla”. To what she answered: “You are wrong, it is not 30%, but 50% the amount of illegal CDs sold in Argentina, but I don’t care a bit about that… my people need music, and so they copy CDs to be able to hear it. If they don’t copy CDs they would not be able to have access to my music. People need music in their daily lives to keep cope, so I don’t mind, on the contrary”. (Please, understand words are as accurate as possible, but this is not a perfect translation, just enough for you to understand the conversation between the journalist and the singer).
I think this is quite a positive reference, to what music really is, a sincere expression from the hart of a person, for others to hear and enjoy. When money comes hard into play, music becomes more and more degraded and prices rises, it is the perfect combination for nonsense and no-art.
I tend to agree. I don't download music (although I admit I have) because I just don't have the time to go looking for it. The problem with running a studio is that at the end of the day, I don't want to listen to music anymore so I haven't actually bought anything new in a long time.On 2004-04-07 14:29, kensuguro wrote:
My take on this is that I don't really care if filesharing hurts CD sales or not. Actually, I hope it kills CD sales. It's too much of a bloated industry anyway with excessive money mongers. Through filesharing, I think people can find new music, find rare music, etc. stuff that wouldn't have happened if it were a closed listening environment. If that means a dead unhealthy market, so be it. In return we have a more healthy consuming mass.
Actually, I think through file sharing, really good bands can shine, without the help of expensive distribution or PR. Bottom line is, there's so much crap being sold, digital domain is just the right medium. Is it crap? press delete. haven't lost a penny.
As far as music distribution is concerned, I think the internet is a great thing - a great leveler if you will. The problem is that MP3's are not CD audio and CD audio is not analog and analog is not the real thing. Everything is a degredation downhill. It's as if we're going backwards instead of forwards. Hopefully, a hundred years from now, the internet will be so fast that you can download 100% perfect quality music. It ain't there yet.
I'm at the point where I'd almost rather hear the real thing (except that's expensive too).
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Basic Pitch
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:00 pm
Well my take,
I can say I have downloaded a few toons here and there mostly out of print stuff that is techno, its not like you can go buy the CD anyways since its import and once its out of print its gone. I wonder where that falls in the dispute.
Then I have downloaded songs from some popular groups and that led me to buying the album, becoming a fan and going to see them in concert lol - Linkin Park is a prime example for me in that area, just saw the show cost me about $150.00USD plus 2 albums ar what 18.99 a piece, all because I downloaded a song or two of theres a few years ago
I guess in the end it doesnt really make much difference since they will NEVER be able to stop file sharing, its just not possible, and lets not forget the music industry is not exactly innocent either, they have just settled a dispute in the US where if you bought a CD during a certain period of time in a certain range of years you were entitled to a refund since they were grossly overcharging the public. I guess its ok for them to steal from the public but its not ok for the public to return the favor
Cheers!
I can say I have downloaded a few toons here and there mostly out of print stuff that is techno, its not like you can go buy the CD anyways since its import and once its out of print its gone. I wonder where that falls in the dispute.
Then I have downloaded songs from some popular groups and that led me to buying the album, becoming a fan and going to see them in concert lol - Linkin Park is a prime example for me in that area, just saw the show cost me about $150.00USD plus 2 albums ar what 18.99 a piece, all because I downloaded a song or two of theres a few years ago
I guess in the end it doesnt really make much difference since they will NEVER be able to stop file sharing, its just not possible, and lets not forget the music industry is not exactly innocent either, they have just settled a dispute in the US where if you bought a CD during a certain period of time in a certain range of years you were entitled to a refund since they were grossly overcharging the public. I guess its ok for them to steal from the public but its not ok for the public to return the favor
Cheers!
I agree on the fact that the internet is a great tool for someone to get his, her or their stuff to public - even get some income from (possible) sales or offers for live gigs to play.
I'd immediately buy a Thalamus or Maket CD (just to name a couple of) if they were available
Without the net I wouldn't even know of their existence.
Yet I disagree on the industry issue. As Paul correctly puts it: that's anything, but 'music'.
Afaik the big $$$ is made with a relatively small number of performers, and possibly merchandizing is an even larger part of the cake.
One can download any top forty record from arbitrary places even without filesharing (as everyone knows), but those 'consumers' are hardly interested in music.
Their heroes represent a kind of dreams-come-true, I wanna-be-like-them attitude etc.
That stuff is bought as an expression to be part of a community, nothing else.
From the economic point of view I understand the industry - but well, they call themselves music business, not cash-cow farmers, so it should be back to work for them
For my personal taste there's an idiotic trend of overproducing sh*t-in-the-face stuff, so I mostly spend my cash on old black disks.
Not so great attitude towards the artists, though, as most of that is (necessarily) 2nd hand
my 2 cents, Tom
I'd immediately buy a Thalamus or Maket CD (just to name a couple of) if they were available
Without the net I wouldn't even know of their existence.
Yet I disagree on the industry issue. As Paul correctly puts it: that's anything, but 'music'.
Afaik the big $$$ is made with a relatively small number of performers, and possibly merchandizing is an even larger part of the cake.
One can download any top forty record from arbitrary places even without filesharing (as everyone knows), but those 'consumers' are hardly interested in music.
Their heroes represent a kind of dreams-come-true, I wanna-be-like-them attitude etc.
That stuff is bought as an expression to be part of a community, nothing else.
From the economic point of view I understand the industry - but well, they call themselves music business, not cash-cow farmers, so it should be back to work for them
For my personal taste there's an idiotic trend of overproducing sh*t-in-the-face stuff, so I mostly spend my cash on old black disks.
Not so great attitude towards the artists, though, as most of that is (necessarily) 2nd hand
my 2 cents, Tom
Whoa - I see a lot of HitHaters here.
Maybe I should be the first to go in the other direction? I realy like to listen to some of the top hits in the radio. One of my favorites at the moment is Dido (mayor hitter here). I do too like some of Britney Spears songs. I think they are very good craftmasship, and they make me want to dance.
At home, I often take some Danish jazz, Johnny Madsen (Danish singer/songwriter), Siouxsie and the Banshees, Aerosmith (although, I think they suck soundwice) and some PlanetZ songs (actually have non of the newer ones). One day, when I live at another place with some more square feet, I will definitely setup my record player and dig out those Bowie, Madonna, Captain Beefheart, Queen and Anthrax records.
I realy see no reason, why music, that sells at high volumes per definition need to be without soul or meaning or value or whatever +word.
Immanuel
Maybe I should be the first to go in the other direction? I realy like to listen to some of the top hits in the radio. One of my favorites at the moment is Dido (mayor hitter here). I do too like some of Britney Spears songs. I think they are very good craftmasship, and they make me want to dance.
At home, I often take some Danish jazz, Johnny Madsen (Danish singer/songwriter), Siouxsie and the Banshees, Aerosmith (although, I think they suck soundwice) and some PlanetZ songs (actually have non of the newer ones). One day, when I live at another place with some more square feet, I will definitely setup my record player and dig out those Bowie, Madonna, Captain Beefheart, Queen and Anthrax records.
I realy see no reason, why music, that sells at high volumes per definition need to be without soul or meaning or value or whatever +word.
Immanuel