Halleluja - In Guns We Trust!

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petal
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Post by petal »

Florida Governor Signs Deadly Force Law:

By Michael Peltier

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuters) - Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a new anti-crime law on Tuesday that allows people to kill in self-defense without first trying to flee.

Supporters say the law is a logical extension of common law that allows homeowners who fear for their lives to use deadly force to defend themselves from an intruder in their homes.

The new law expands that doctrine to include people in public places who feel threatened and could be subject to death or great bodily harm.

"To suggest that you can't defend yourself against a rapist, who's trying to drag you into an alley, or against a carjacker who's trying to drag you out of your car is nonsense," said Marion Hammer, a former president of the National Rifle Association.

"The ability to protect yourself, your children or your spouse, is important, no matter where you are."

Critics of the new law, called the "Stand Your Ground" bill, have few objections to allowing people to protect themselves in their homes but say the bill will create a "Wild West" mentality in public, where residents may shoot first and ask questions later.

"There are going to be a lot of repercussions," said Rep. Eleanor Sobel, a Democrat. "You could have someone reaching into their pocket and if the person felt threatened he could shoot."

Like many states, Florida courts have ruled that homeowners have a right to defend themselves in their homes. Florida courts have expanded the doctrine to include employees in their workplace and drivers who are attacked in their automobiles.

Outside the home, however, courts have ruled that most victims must at least attempt to escape before using deadly force, a provision gun advocates say puts victims at greater risk. The new law removes that requirement if a person has a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

"All this bill will do is sell more guns and possibly turn Florida into the OK Corral," Rep. Irv Slosberg, a Democrat, said during recent debate on the bill.


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic ... IDA-DC.XML


Seems like they know what they are doing over there..... :roll:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: petal on 2005-04-27 08:07 ]</font>
emzee
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Post by emzee »

Put yer hands up................................yer bum.....

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: emzee on 2005-04-27 09:28 ]</font>
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

"... and a few of them playing games for a while...
Boom Boom...lie down you´re dead!"

Pink Floyd, Album:The Final Cut

To say, that you have to fight for your free,peaceful life without any harm to yourself or better said, you have to protect your life because you never know what will happen next, is a really poor statement of the most evolved part of humankind (as they call themselves).

Not to generalize all americans above one blade, of course.

Where this should end in?

There is or was a good signature around Z.
"One eye for the other and soon the world will be blind." Ghandi


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2005-04-27 11:44 ]</font>
Spirit
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Post by Spirit »

Well, I don't know. This is very easy to criticise since it seems so wrong. But remember that the Cold War basically kept the number of conflicts and wars to an absolute minimum because of the MAD doctrine.

Perhaps this might work the same way ? When everyone is capable of "deadly force" perhaps bad guys will think twice ?

I'm not saying this is a good solution, but maybe it could work. Be very interesting to see how it goes.
Immanuel
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Post by Immanuel »

Americans kill more Americans than all other nations combined (and remember America (like Denmark :sad: )is at war). The bad thing about legalizing weapons is, that many times what could have ended in violence ends in murder. You have the S***, so when the going gets tough you use it. Remember that this does not only account for people defending themselves. I understand why people want to be able to defend themselves, because it is bloody scarring when other people - some of whom care very little for others - are alowed to carry guns.

I can not defend myself if someone with a gun wants to hurt me. Still I feel more safe, because there are less guns in the street. So not being able to defend myself makes my "world" safer.
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kensuguro
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Post by kensuguro »

well, being in Miami, I'd say nothing is going to help this state but better education, and less immigrants. I mean, not that Miami represents the US.. It's more of Cuba than anything else.

As far as I can see, Florida's a "start-off" place for immigrants, where they grow their first and second generations. Then the well educated, english speaking generations flee out of state. So, Florida's kind of a busy place, people going in and out, struggling to secure a better life for the next generation. The ones that stay though, are the first generation people, who have the least education.

Then there's the whole cuban way of life thing, where everyone's very connected. Relatives, friends, mixed with small homegrown businesses.. It's a good way to create communities that help each other, but at the same time you can get lots of friction there.

So you mix these two, and you get chaos. And in this chaos, I don't think anyone should own a gun. Actually, Tellahasse is kind of different from Miami. I haven't been there, but people have told me it's more "Southern US" than Miami, which again, is almost a Cuban colony. So that definitely influences their world view in Tellahasse.

Okay, the other side of the story: I guess I can feel for the immigrants from cuba.. I mean, a lot of the really just want a better life for their kids, and are willing to spend their live's effort in securing that. And from what I hear, Cuba isn't a place to be.. I mean, I'd hear about "well, in Cuba you'd eat anything that was edible" and things like that.. Miami's chaotic and all messed up from my perspective, but for them I think it's more advanced, cultivated, and full of hope compared to cuba. Or atleast for those who came out of desperation.

Knowing that, it's sad to see that Miami's a very violent place. It has the 4th highest crime rate in the US. Not something you'd expect from people just wanting better lives eh?

I don't understand why people need to carry guns anyway. I mean, bad guys have guns so good guys need bigger badder guns, so the bad guys need bigger badder guns, and so on... it's a pointless cycle. I think it's all about education. Give them better brains instead of better weapons. Coming from Japan, the general level education in the US is painful to watch. There are good schools, but overall, it's painful. Give them guns, you get war.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2005-04-27 12:56 ]</font>
Spirit
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Post by Spirit »

I remember seeing a documentary in the early 1980s called "The Killing of America" all about guns and serial killers. It was strongly anti-gun and said that there were (even then) more than 100 million guns in circulation. One of its memorable quotes was "two guns for every family".

I'm certainly no expert on things American, but isn't the right to bear arms written into the constitution ? Try to ammend that and the nutty Militias will know it's time for the great rising.

How do you get so many guns out of circulation ? In Australia, after a nasty mass shooting there was a ban on automatic weapons. The farmers weren't happy, but eventually the "gun buy-back" was successful. The number of guns seems to be greatly reduced.

But in a gun-crazy place like the US ?
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paulrmartin
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Post by paulrmartin »

I'm sorry but, what a f....ing idiot that gov is! Same as his brother.....:sad:
Are we listening?..
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Post by Guest »

Oh Image

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-04-27 16:17 ]</font>
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

what's with the picture of two men fighting? and please, my refined european friends, remember the great battlefields of europe, i'm not surprised that you are tired of fighting :wink: .

over here, are the colonists, survivors of invasion and profiteers. we are only here because of our guns. don't think that anything is given up without a bloody fight. i ask you punk, is it worth it? make my day.....y'all love us for dat, yo. everyone wants to be luke skywalker, hero. the survivor against all odds. it's extreme, yo.

getting rid of guns is not the answer if some(like the "authorities") are still allowed to have them.(a truly "american" attitude) making laws doesn't matter. it's what's in people's mind and hearts that is the crux of the matter. it is proper for someone to be able to defend one's self, from private or public threats, provided that the attack is unprovoked. one should never fear repercussions for that. at the same time, it's much better that violence is never used at all. if the goal is to be a heroic, military figure(a strong man), violence is inevitable.

there are guns in the world. there is no one that i trust with a gun, including police. i reserve the RIGHT to defend myself, up to using a gun, from unprovoked attack by anyone. there is no higher authority in this matter, other than my ultimate maker. i also reserve the right to not use a gun or defend myself.

why would i want anything legislated any other way? what i would like to see, is a more positive outlook on how to be human and the value of humanity from all media sources and techers and institutions and families, so that a strong man was not a killer, but something cooler, then you would not be having these types of conversations about whether guns were good for people to have. guns wouldn't be an issue because people wouldn't have much use for them.
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BingoTheClowno
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Post by BingoTheClowno »

On 2005-04-27 16:49, garyb wrote:

what i would like to see, is a more positive outlook on how to be human and the value of humanity from all media sources and techers and institutions and families, so that a strong man was not a killer, but something cooler, then you would not be having these types of conversations about whether guns were good for people to have. guns wouldn't be an issue because people wouldn't have much use for them.
Very, very well put gary, right on!

Image

Many will argue that sex & violence "sells" which draws the discussion into the same endless, conflicting debate loop about money vs values, religion, life, whatever...
mr swim
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Post by mr swim »


I'm certainly no expert on things American, but isn't the right to bear arms written into the constitution ? Try to ammend that and the nutty Militias will know it's time for the great rising.
There's a law in the UK which states that any able bodied man over the age of 6 (or something like that) must practice the longbow every sunday. There is another one about (the english) being allowed to kill welsh people !

The reason these laws were introduced was (a) our hundred year war with the french (and practically everyone else) and (b) the fact that the welsh used to be quite scary if you were in the border countries.

As I understand it the gun laws in the states were the same - weren't they there so that you could kill redcoats back in the 1790's ? Anyway the point is that laws can go out of date.

But the second part of the point may well be so - it looks like a pragmatic question rather than anything else (so I think I agree with you)

These things are always hard to de-escalate, but I guess more so in the states because of the predominantly libertarian attitude over there (like garyb's - which incidently I'm quite fond of).

One thing that strikes me is that people (especially here in the UK) are very quick to judge america by their own terms, while allowing a massive degree of cultural relativism to other countries (like in the middle east, for instance). America is just a very different culture (despite lots of similarities) and if you don't like that culture, you don't have to go there !

my 2c (or should I say 'p' :wink: )
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emzee
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Post by emzee »

Aggression is innate in human makeup. Read "Human Aggression" by Randolph Storr, Professor of Psychiatry @ somewhere famous.....if you don't believe me. The culling for War Crimes after WWII in Europe and Japan dropped the populations of aggressors there.

Edit: WW2 saw the virtual extinction of the Warrior Class in Japan, as they preferred to fight to the death...as do the Ghurka's ...who will never ever surrender again.

Double edit: Storr drew parallels through history where nations sent menfolk off to war, resulting in the deaths of many with propensity for violence. Followed paradoxically by long periods of peace and harmony..... for the vanquished. For some nations 200-300 years.

I think the victorious nations typically showed increasing social unrest.....until they overextended themselves and got their arse kicked. Then they got their turn to be peaceful and harmonious. Generally men were slaughtered after battle I think. Been a while since I read it.


(I've edited this post heavily to make it easier to read coz I think it's important).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: emzee on 2005-04-28 09:22 ]</font>
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braincell
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Post by braincell »

<p><img alt="undergod.jpg" src="http://www.thebishop.net/geodog/archive ... dergod.jpg" /></p>

<a name="more"></a>





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2005-04-28 17:43 ]</font>
hubird

Post by hubird »

Image............ 'just fighting for peace, man'
Casper
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Post by Casper »

quote Spirit:
"
Well, I don't know. This is very easy to criticise since it seems so wrong. But remember that the Cold War basically kept the number of conflicts and wars to an absolute minimum because of the MAD doctrine.

Perhaps this might work the same way ? When everyone is capable of "deadly force" perhaps bad guys will think twice ?

I'm not saying this is a good solution, but maybe it could work. Be very interesting to see how it goes.
"

It's very easy to promote too I guess.
This is not the cold war what so ever.

The bad guys will only take more drastic measures to get what they want. They often just point there guns and just tell you to put the money in the bag. Now they will first shoot you just to be sure you won't shoot them first. People who are desparate for money won't stop just because you can shoot first now. Drug addicts and so on have a strong motive to do the things drugaddicts do.

Another Bush failure.....


cheers,
Casper
bosone
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Post by bosone »

but what if i lived in florida, and thought that THIS law is a MAJOR threat to my security?
would i be allowed to shoot to mr bush? he (and his brother) is the real threat to humankind!
emzee
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Post by emzee »

We get the leaders we deserve. If the US public don't want them, they'll get rid of them at the next poll.
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krizrox
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Post by krizrox »

On 2005-04-28 08:52, bosone wrote:
but what if i lived in florida, and thought that THIS law is a MAJOR threat to my security?
would i be allowed to shoot to mr bush? he (and his brother) is the real threat to humankind!
Yeah right. What the world really needs are more "piece-loving" politicians like this:

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/enter ... icciolina/

:smile:
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