This is an issue that's been bothing me for some time. Say, you're doing a collaboration, maybe in as a production team, working under a director. So the distribution of creative power is the director first, then you and the team. Say the team is a new team and no one really knows each other.
First meeting, you all introduce yourselves, director briefs you on what the project is about, and you all start an initial brainstorming session. Let's say there are two music guys, because there needs to be lots of music. After the brainstorming session, you both go home with an assignment of thinking of ideas to use for songs, like styles, mood, etc. Or better yet, create short versions of the song to use as reference.
Well, here's the part I hate. I usually will write a couple of reference pieces to put everything in perspective, especially for the non-musically literate. The problem is the OTHER music guy. He can say one of two things: "Hey there are some nice ideas in there that definitely belong in the project.", or "I think the bassline is a bit too loud.. that is the bass right? And the synth gives the song such a cold sound" For sake of argument, let's say he doesn't have any sound to play for you.
Apart from whether this guy is right or wrong, there's another problem.. There are guys that would start nit-picking at reference mockups because they're a nit-picking kinda guy anyway (in which case he'll be a pain to work with) or he's doing so because he's creating a battle for credibility.
Now the battle for credibility kinda guy is very problematic.. I guess part of it is smart buisiness conduct, verbally showing others that you're better than someone by talking your competition down..
Personally, I'd prefer teamwork, or "wa", unity, peace, and all the great things in life. But, alot of the times it's constant competition, fighting to control the scene, being the catalyst, being the survivor.. whatever.. I think all those reality shows are sticking extreme pictures in people's minds. Anyway, there's clearly a difference in interest.
So, instead of a 2 music guys working in conjunction to create double the work efficiency, you get two guys trying to beat each other showing off skills that are related or un-related to the project, generally degrading the work quality and efficiency. Sound familiar? Not only is this a familiar sight at most any work environment.. it's also the ever tiresome "little boy" behavior that we've grown up seeing at school!
Simply I just wanted to say that I think such competition is unncessary and childish. At the same time, I want to hear some opinions about this... is "wa" just a vapor I'm trying to uphold? Am I just being weak in a competitive world?
I usually can understand directors, producers showing this kind of behavior because they're more business most of the time. It just really hurts me to see a fellow musician act this way, or any fellow artist for that matter... I think artists have the responsibility to show mental and spiritual maturity (since that's where art should come from) and to also uphold ideals that the sick part of society has forgotten about. Non of this "talking crap about fellow team workers" nonsense.
a tug of war of creative power
you're right of course, but currently, getting along is out of fashion. persevere. you'll have many collaborative experiences in life, some better some worse. keep pushing for teamwork and the common goal. if you're not in charge, you'll have to take it.
this is a remnant of the monkey conscience. in the monkey world, there's this pecking order and if it's not absolutely clear, then there's strife. basically, it goes like this: the dominant male presents his backside to no one, all provide rumps to him for penetration. each male down the line presents his rump to those above him and has an alimentary end point presented to him by those below. the poor guy on the bottom gets it from everybody. monkeys are stupid, mean and nasty, but it's their nature and they don't complain. humans have a choice but often behave like monkeys anyway.....
this is a remnant of the monkey conscience. in the monkey world, there's this pecking order and if it's not absolutely clear, then there's strife. basically, it goes like this: the dominant male presents his backside to no one, all provide rumps to him for penetration. each male down the line presents his rump to those above him and has an alimentary end point presented to him by those below. the poor guy on the bottom gets it from everybody. monkeys are stupid, mean and nasty, but it's their nature and they don't complain. humans have a choice but often behave like monkeys anyway.....
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Nestor
- Posts: 6683
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I think nothing will replace experience in this fields Ken. I mean, the more you go into these kind of situations, the more you become prone to solve like an expert, psychological struggles between the parts. Experience will be your master all over the way. I know it is a bit hard to think this way, because is like saying: “there is no other way than going into those troubles trying the best you can to come up clean and save, reflect and learn”, but this is absolutely real.
In the other hand, and even if people find you are a bit odd at doing it, we should be able to expose our way or philosophy when working, so everybody can understand where you come from.
Then, when you talk about competition, I understand you SO well. I am constantly saying that COLLABORATION must be the way instate of competition. When you collaborate with somebody and they do it with you, competence and all the rubbish emotions that comes from it vanish, everybody feels happy and relaxed, so ideas are not to show how intelligent or important you are, you let your forever and nevertheless ALWAYS small “I”, your always and forever unimportant “EGO or SELF” for the sake of the project, for the search of the goal itself. Competitions brings about the worst in people, all their false pride and desires to crash others, while collaborations asks your mind to concentrate in a common idea, and the idea becomes extremely enjoyable. Because when the “I” disappears to give place to the “community” idea, there is friendship and love, and so people just take pleasure in the creative process. I understand and sympathise so much with your words Ken, I’m glad you think that way.
Curiously, the artistic work of those who are “ego lovers” is always inferior to the work of those more detached, unselfish people. The more you love yourself in an inferior way, in a egoist way, the more stupid you become, and the less inspiration you can feel, because inspiration comes from the bottom, from the heart of a human being, and not from his delusion of grandeur.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2005-10-08 14:43 ]</font>
In the other hand, and even if people find you are a bit odd at doing it, we should be able to expose our way or philosophy when working, so everybody can understand where you come from.
Then, when you talk about competition, I understand you SO well. I am constantly saying that COLLABORATION must be the way instate of competition. When you collaborate with somebody and they do it with you, competence and all the rubbish emotions that comes from it vanish, everybody feels happy and relaxed, so ideas are not to show how intelligent or important you are, you let your forever and nevertheless ALWAYS small “I”, your always and forever unimportant “EGO or SELF” for the sake of the project, for the search of the goal itself. Competitions brings about the worst in people, all their false pride and desires to crash others, while collaborations asks your mind to concentrate in a common idea, and the idea becomes extremely enjoyable. Because when the “I” disappears to give place to the “community” idea, there is friendship and love, and so people just take pleasure in the creative process. I understand and sympathise so much with your words Ken, I’m glad you think that way.
Curiously, the artistic work of those who are “ego lovers” is always inferior to the work of those more detached, unselfish people. The more you love yourself in an inferior way, in a egoist way, the more stupid you become, and the less inspiration you can feel, because inspiration comes from the bottom, from the heart of a human being, and not from his delusion of grandeur.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2005-10-08 14:43 ]</font>
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Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
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You need a person in charge, the "design authority" if you like (perhaps the director?) Somebody who's responsibility is to say, "re-do the bass, add some strings, that bit works really well" etc.
Otherwise, with the situation you describe, I can't see it working very well unless you and the other music guy actually get together and work on the music together, at the same time.
Otherwise, with the situation you describe, I can't see it working very well unless you and the other music guy actually get together and work on the music together, at the same time.
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paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
In a perfect world the music guys would go out for a beer and then decide when they can jam so as to get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses.
In a perfect world the director of the project would at least know what he wants(with musical examples to support this).
In a perfect world everybody would know when to speak up and when to shut the fuck up(when in doubt, abstain from making an ass out of yourself).
...it ain't a perfect world, eh?...
In a perfect world the director of the project would at least know what he wants(with musical examples to support this).
In a perfect world everybody would know when to speak up and when to shut the fuck up(when in doubt, abstain from making an ass out of yourself).
...it ain't a perfect world, eh?...
Are we listening?..
