Greetings Experts
my setup: Mac G4 OS9.2.2, SCOPE card, SFP, Digital Performer 2.72, OMS. etc
I have been rasslin with a problem for a few days now where I cannot reliably record with SFP>Sample Rate in SLAVE Mode (for incoming ADAT signal) + have the Sequencer (DP) set to MIDI Slave To Ext. Sync.
What happens is either the MIDI stops working (OMS) and/or the Audio (in thru ADAT input) ceases to stream OUT thru SFP ASIO.
Working this way is very delicate anyway as the Sequencer cannot be launched when SFP is in Audio Slave Mode, and switching from Mater to Slave must be done very carefully once the Seq. is already launched.
I am able to do one or the other (audio or MIDI sync) fairly reliably - and OCCASSIONALLY both(!) - but usually not.
Sometimes what happens is a get a few bars of AUDIO that passes thru ADAT input to ASIO poutout - and then all audio frops, which I assume is ASIO losing sync.
What do you think? I welcome your thoughts!
Thanks in advance
Ed
ADAT Slave + MIDI Ext sync..losing ASIO, losing OMS
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thanks
Ed Mann
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thanks
Ed Mann
Hi Ed,
I see that nobody answers, so I'll try to point to some things, but as you maybe already know I don't know Macs and I confess that I don't even have a clue on Digital Performer, so what I'll say is related to Cubase and Windows, it might help somehow.
First thing is that I've read in more than place that MIDI slaving a digital audio app is highly NOT recommended, the 7bit async MIDI protocol is absolutely uncapable to match the audio rate (sync) timing. A Daw must run sync'ed to the audiocard samplerate, it can output MIDI signals to have MIDI gear more or less tightly running along.
I don't know how DP behaves in such a condition, but if, as you said, you can do both the things separately, this means that the two functions are not individually broken. It mostly seems something related to DP's functionality...you also run that OMS app that is not needed in windows, I really don't know if the problem could be in that app, in DP or related with Mac OS management of the increased data flux.
Sorry if I ask, but what's the purpose of MIDI Slaving DP? MIDI slaved to what?
I see that nobody answers, so I'll try to point to some things, but as you maybe already know I don't know Macs and I confess that I don't even have a clue on Digital Performer, so what I'll say is related to Cubase and Windows, it might help somehow.
First thing is that I've read in more than place that MIDI slaving a digital audio app is highly NOT recommended, the 7bit async MIDI protocol is absolutely uncapable to match the audio rate (sync) timing. A Daw must run sync'ed to the audiocard samplerate, it can output MIDI signals to have MIDI gear more or less tightly running along.
I don't know how DP behaves in such a condition, but if, as you said, you can do both the things separately, this means that the two functions are not individually broken. It mostly seems something related to DP's functionality...you also run that OMS app that is not needed in windows, I really don't know if the problem could be in that app, in DP or related with Mac OS management of the increased data flux.
Sorry if I ask, but what's the purpose of MIDI Slaving DP? MIDI slaved to what?
-
hubird
Wise words 
Not having the card in Master mode is always tricky, you should really understand what you are doing then.
I'm on mac, but I can't figure what's wrong.
I keep my working process simple, as I'm not so good in solving complex problems
Maybe the best you can do is trying another sinc and midi routing setup, to see what you get.
Sometimes you have to face another approach, to serve yourself new ways of looking at the matter, or maybe to make you conscious about the 'usual' way things are done
(me on Cubase, no problems at all, OMS is a pain in the ass, the way it spreads around it's files, but once it works it works
Renewing the CWA and DP midi and/or audio drivers could help, specially after occasionally having quit the sequencer first.
Tip: in Cubase you can choose 'Unable audio'.
Having done so, you can change your Scope project, even the ASIO modules, without quitting the sequencer.
Quitting SFP is never tolerated tho.
Dunno about DP tho.
BTW, working with a DSP card it's totally normal that you should close the (ASIO dependent) sequencer first.
This routine should be part of your dna
good luck
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-11-16 16:18 ]</font>
Not having the card in Master mode is always tricky, you should really understand what you are doing then.
I'm on mac, but I can't figure what's wrong.
I keep my working process simple, as I'm not so good in solving complex problems
Maybe the best you can do is trying another sinc and midi routing setup, to see what you get.
Sometimes you have to face another approach, to serve yourself new ways of looking at the matter, or maybe to make you conscious about the 'usual' way things are done
(me on Cubase, no problems at all, OMS is a pain in the ass, the way it spreads around it's files, but once it works it works
Renewing the CWA and DP midi and/or audio drivers could help, specially after occasionally having quit the sequencer first.
Tip: in Cubase you can choose 'Unable audio'.
Having done so, you can change your Scope project, even the ASIO modules, without quitting the sequencer.
Quitting SFP is never tolerated tho.
Dunno about DP tho.
BTW, working with a DSP card it's totally normal that you should close the (ASIO dependent) sequencer first.
This routine should be part of your dna
good luck
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-11-16 16:18 ]</font>
Greetings Everyone
thanks very much and my experiences are similar to what you mention. The DAW not as a MIDI Slave - for sure. I have been doing DAW as MIDI Master today and it works much better.
RE: AUDIO sync'd to External Clock, I must:
*Open SFP (as Audio Master)
*Open DP Project
*Close all DP Windows,"select" the Creamware ASIO driver (handshake-like) in DP
*Go to SFP, change Audio Sync to Slave to ADAT
*go back to DP, "select" the Creamware ASIO Driver again, open the Tracks Window, act as if everything is fine
*Record (DAW as MIDI Master)
It works 2/3 of the time, the other 1/3 - Crash. Sometimes it crashes on "selecting" Creamware ASIO Driver just before recording.
Weird! Sometimes it seems like a memory cache fills up somewhere and then the computer has to be restarted, or shut down and restarted.
I am getting a lot of crashes - I used to get none, for a long time. What messed things up was my (1) day of succesful Audio and MIDI Slave!
Thanks again it is good to have mysteries confirmed - Cubase is in many ways similar to DP I think, I am going to look for Disable Audio!
best
Ed
The vulnerable spot for sure is the Seq's lock with the Creamware Clock.
thanks very much and my experiences are similar to what you mention. The DAW not as a MIDI Slave - for sure. I have been doing DAW as MIDI Master today and it works much better.
RE: AUDIO sync'd to External Clock, I must:
*Open SFP (as Audio Master)
*Open DP Project
*Close all DP Windows,"select" the Creamware ASIO driver (handshake-like) in DP
*Go to SFP, change Audio Sync to Slave to ADAT
*go back to DP, "select" the Creamware ASIO Driver again, open the Tracks Window, act as if everything is fine
*Record (DAW as MIDI Master)
It works 2/3 of the time, the other 1/3 - Crash. Sometimes it crashes on "selecting" Creamware ASIO Driver just before recording.
Weird! Sometimes it seems like a memory cache fills up somewhere and then the computer has to be restarted, or shut down and restarted.
I am getting a lot of crashes - I used to get none, for a long time. What messed things up was my (1) day of succesful Audio and MIDI Slave!
Thanks again it is good to have mysteries confirmed - Cubase is in many ways similar to DP I think, I am going to look for Disable Audio!
best
Ed
The vulnerable spot for sure is the Seq's lock with the Creamware Clock.
-
hubird
I have a startup project, with ASIO and midi modules included.
It shows up automaticly after starting up my beloved mac.
If I then start Cubase, my default song starts up, with the CW audio driver and the OMS settings 'found', automaticly.
DP should act similar I guess, at worst you have to do it manually after every startup of it...
Changing the card to slave mode after having chained DP to Creamware's ASIO driver can't be ok.
Unless you find the Disable Audio function...
You'll solve it, it's mac after all
It shows up automaticly after starting up my beloved mac.
If I then start Cubase, my default song starts up, with the CW audio driver and the OMS settings 'found', automaticly.
DP should act similar I guess, at worst you have to do it manually after every startup of it...
Changing the card to slave mode after having chained DP to Creamware's ASIO driver can't be ok.
Unless you find the Disable Audio function...
You'll solve it, it's mac after all
Truth, Hubird! In fact however- ~I must~.On 2005-11-16 17:33, hubird wrote:
Changing the card to slave mode after having chained DP to Creamware's ASIO driver can't be ok.
To wit: I cannot launch DP w/SFP in Audio Slave mode, otherwise the Creamware OMS Driver does not load
- ..I got the tip here a while back to alway launch SP with SFP in Master
Catch-22?
-
hubird
what is "scope audio slave mode" and where is it enabled?
DP has no master clock function...is scope's clock set to slave? is there no master clock running when DP is opened? that will never work. is there confusion about what clock sync for audio is? audio clock and midi clock are very different, although i'm sure you know that.....
if a master clock other than scope's is running and scope is slaved to it, the sequencer(and oms) see no difference than when scope's clock is master. whatever the clock is, DP MUST sync to IT(what scope tells it). without a clock, DP has no input/output of ANY kind.
likewise, changing the clock source while DP is running, causes DP to lose sight of it's i/o when the clock is interrupted, especially when playback is running. it's the nature of the asio driver. it is possible with a dedicated dumb card running a wav type driver, to have the app sync to an external clock and slave the card, theoretically(i've never seen such a situation where that made sense. maybe some proprietary hardware config) and so apps seem to allow for it. engineers are funny sometimes...
all audio apps work this way. AUDIO clock slaves to the scope card. MIDI clock can sync to whatever you like.
if scope is set to be SLAVE, the clock source must be present when DP is opened. if you need to change the setting, it's best to close DP.
there is nothing speedy about studio work. you have time to close the app and make your change and reopen the app. I don't know if DP has a reset function like sonar and sx, but i'll bet it does. even with that, i say "shut the app, make the change, reopen the app". that way, you spend less overall time fiddling with the gear and more time fiddlin', since the app will be more stable.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-11-16 21:51 ]</font>
DP has no master clock function...is scope's clock set to slave? is there no master clock running when DP is opened? that will never work. is there confusion about what clock sync for audio is? audio clock and midi clock are very different, although i'm sure you know that.....
if a master clock other than scope's is running and scope is slaved to it, the sequencer(and oms) see no difference than when scope's clock is master. whatever the clock is, DP MUST sync to IT(what scope tells it). without a clock, DP has no input/output of ANY kind.
likewise, changing the clock source while DP is running, causes DP to lose sight of it's i/o when the clock is interrupted, especially when playback is running. it's the nature of the asio driver. it is possible with a dedicated dumb card running a wav type driver, to have the app sync to an external clock and slave the card, theoretically(i've never seen such a situation where that made sense. maybe some proprietary hardware config) and so apps seem to allow for it. engineers are funny sometimes...
all audio apps work this way. AUDIO clock slaves to the scope card. MIDI clock can sync to whatever you like.
if scope is set to be SLAVE, the clock source must be present when DP is opened. if you need to change the setting, it's best to close DP.
there is nothing speedy about studio work. you have time to close the app and make your change and reopen the app. I don't know if DP has a reset function like sonar and sx, but i'll bet it does. even with that, i say "shut the app, make the change, reopen the app". that way, you spend less overall time fiddling with the gear and more time fiddlin', since the app will be more stable.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-11-16 21:51 ]</font>
Hello,
I would advice not to use the Creamware MIDI driver on Mac OS 9 at all. It's better to connect a MIDI output on a USB MIDI interface (a MOTU Fastlane or MicroLite for example) directly to a MIDI input on a Creamware PCI card. This way OMS does not need to 'see' the virtual MIDI ports of the Creamware Scope software. It's more reliable this way on my system.
Dodge
I would advice not to use the Creamware MIDI driver on Mac OS 9 at all. It's better to connect a MIDI output on a USB MIDI interface (a MOTU Fastlane or MicroLite for example) directly to a MIDI input on a Creamware PCI card. This way OMS does not need to 'see' the virtual MIDI ports of the Creamware Scope software. It's more reliable this way on my system.
Dodge
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]On 2005-11-16 21:20, garyb wrote:
what is "scope audio slave mode" and where is it enabled?
It is: SET>SAMPLE RATE>SLAVE/MASTER
DP has no master clock function...is scope's clock set to slave? is there no master clock running when DP is opened?
That would be a luxury - I would like to learn how to make that happen here
Well...I appreciate that point to consider Dodge....but it seriously limits the functionality of the DAW not to have the routing flexibility of OMS. I would do it that way however if SFP becomes an auxiliary station only...On 2005-11-17 03:26, dodge wrote:
Hello,
I would advice not to use the Creamware MIDI driver on Mac OS 9 at all. It's better to connect a MIDI output on a USB MIDI interface (a MOTU Fastlane or MicroLite for example) directly to a MIDI input on a Creamware PCI card. This way OMS does not need to 'see' the virtual MIDI ports of the Creamware Scope software. It's more reliable this way on my system.
Dodge
thanks man
Ed
Sorry Ed, i was way off target. Missunderstood, misinterpreted, misfiredOn 2005-11-16 20:01, edmann wrote:I am dense, shrooms. What does this code mean?On 2005-11-16 17:40, Shroomz wrote:
TGT vs QPC
That's what i get for typing on drugs
QPC = QueryPerformanceCounter
TGT = TimeGetTime
Multimedia timers
VST and ASIO specs are based on TGT. Newer drivers are likely to use QPC (like drivers for new midi hardware)
Anyway, it's OT & i actually don't know DP.
what i can tell you is that we've got our Pulsar II slaved to a Yamaha O1V. At the moment we've got 1 O1V as master, which slaves the PulsarII via lightpipe, with a second O1V slaved to PulsarII via Adat, a Noah slaved to the PulsarII's sync plate (BNC), an Emu sampler slaved to the PulsarII via Adat & it's working very nicely indeed
No problems slaving the PulsarII via Adat is essentially what i'm saying. Took a little while to figure out that our system's sync works best this way, but we've still not figured out why. Tried all manner of configs, but slaving the PulsarII to the O1V is the only config using this gear that left us with reliable sync throughout (including sync plates WC to Noah, which we hyad problems with until slaving the PulsarII)
Probably not much use to you that lot tho
-
Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
How so? i have a Midex 3 run by OMS no problems - in fact i haven't gone near the SCOPE MIDI ports for years as i started on the earlier Pulsar versions with a bit of a flaky MIDI implementation. What functions do you lose using USB?Well...I appreciate that point to consider Dodge....but it seriously limits the functionality of the DAW not to have the routing flexibility of OMS
Also i find when changing anything serious in SCOPE (like ASIO or Projects) that closing the host (Cubase in my case) is the standard way everyone works. It takes 30 seconds - you haven't got 30 seconds during your sessions.
Might be completely misinterpreting what your problem, hope you can sort it though.
Mr A
Greetings Mr A -
I do use OMS - and it has been great = no problems with the overall setup for 18 months now, until recently.
I do have 30 seconds - but the problem is that IF I close DP (my seq/recording software) and then change the SCOPE Audio Sync Source to SLAVE - I cannot reopen DP (it crashes unless SCOPE is set to MASTER) -
I appreciate your time in helping me sus out this strangeness - or how to better navigate these problems, which I had when I was first learning to blend DP with SCOPE, then got the system "used to it" and it worked OK for 18 months - and now I have the problems again.
it's hit or miss - no predictable pattern that I can recognize that will assure success. Definitely a predectable pattern to assure failure (i.e. trying to launch DP with SCOPE set to AUDIO SLAVE, etc)
thanks!
Ed
I do use OMS - and it has been great = no problems with the overall setup for 18 months now, until recently.
I do have 30 seconds - but the problem is that IF I close DP (my seq/recording software) and then change the SCOPE Audio Sync Source to SLAVE - I cannot reopen DP (it crashes unless SCOPE is set to MASTER) -
I appreciate your time in helping me sus out this strangeness - or how to better navigate these problems, which I had when I was first learning to blend DP with SCOPE, then got the system "used to it" and it worked OK for 18 months - and now I have the problems again.
it's hit or miss - no predictable pattern that I can recognize that will assure success. Definitely a predectable pattern to assure failure (i.e. trying to launch DP with SCOPE set to AUDIO SLAVE, etc)
thanks!
Ed
-
Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
Unfortunately DP is not very popular in the UK (or Europe as a whole?), so us Maccers over here will be of limited help.
Which version of SCOPE are you using - have you tried SCOPE 4? If not maybe try updating, which will also act effectively as a complete reinstall, which is always an idea when things go tits up, especially if you've had things working before (perhaps reinstall DP too checking you have the latest drivers).
Sounds more like a DP problem purely because it refuses to launch when SCOPE is set to Slave, as far as i know other sequnecers work fine.
Other than that hopefully we can all keep bashing away till something works.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2005-11-17 09:26 ]</font>
Which version of SCOPE are you using - have you tried SCOPE 4? If not maybe try updating, which will also act effectively as a complete reinstall, which is always an idea when things go tits up, especially if you've had things working before (perhaps reinstall DP too checking you have the latest drivers).
Sounds more like a DP problem purely because it refuses to launch when SCOPE is set to Slave, as far as i know other sequnecers work fine.
Other than that hopefully we can all keep bashing away till something works.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2005-11-17 09:26 ]</font>
Thanks Mr A -
I shall gather my abilities in prep to upgrade/reinstall SCOPE, is SCOPe 4 different w/re to functionality?
Drivers: this is a long since abandoned version of DP, on a long since abandoned OS, but a reinstall of DP is a good idea and I will try it.
I do beleieve that there are audio clock or hardware setup options available in DP that I have not discovered because I have never realized I needed them, and which may help this situation
Thank you for your time and consideration!
best w
Ed
I shall gather my abilities in prep to upgrade/reinstall SCOPE, is SCOPe 4 different w/re to functionality?
Drivers: this is a long since abandoned version of DP, on a long since abandoned OS, but a reinstall of DP is a good idea and I will try it.
I do beleieve that there are audio clock or hardware setup options available in DP that I have not discovered because I have never realized I needed them, and which may help this situation
Thank you for your time and consideration!
best w
Ed