Windows Xp SP3 freezes on new Mobo scope 4.5

[mindscan]

Hi,

I'm still waiting for an answer from soniccore, but my problem is getting too frustrating so I thought I share it here. Anybody had freezing problems with scope 4.5 on a windows XP SP3 32bit system.
A few weeks ago I decided to upgrade my old pc and now I start to regret it. My system is as follows:
Mobo : Asus P8Z68-V (Mobo with 2 classic PCI)
CPU : I7 - 2600K
16GB ram
Luna II PCI (scope home)

Dual boot:
Windows XP SP 3 32bit (for support on my old scope 4.5)
Windows 7 64 bit
Cubase SX5.

Scope 4.5 worked perfectly on my old XP with SP2.
new pc is running smoothly , no overclocking , temperatures all nicely within limits, decent power supply, new harddrives..

Issue: Since I installed my LUNA II card together with Scope 4.5 I get random freezes. Sudenly my mouse pointer stops and no keyboard reaction. I can only restart the pc. Nothing in the event viewer. This happens randomly, sometimes within 10 minutes sometimes after 2 hours. Doing nothing special on the pc and it was a clean install. yesterday I removed the Luna card and uninstalled scope, left the pc on for the night and it was till runing perfectly this morning. So I 99% suspect the card in combination with scope 4.5 in combination with new hardware, and possible SP3 in XP?
Already did a card reseat and removing scope and reinstalling it, didn't help.


I wrote to Soniccore that I don't mind passing on to Scope 5.1, even if I'm fine with 4.5, if it can solve my freezing problems. I would even consider then moving on to W7 64bit. The only thing stopping me, who can guarantee me the freezing will be resolved after an upgrade. If not, a waste of 159 euro on my account

Doesn't Sonic offer a trial scope version? I find it ridiculous having to pay a full amount without even knwoing for sure it will work well on a system. Every serious sofware vendor offers trials.
If the trial would work for me, I would stay with scope and be more than willing to pay. Now I am really considering moving onto another platform (EMU..) since I doubt taking the risk of paying an expensive upgrade for only a new driver (don't need the synths or effects)..

If somebody had similar experience, all help/tips appreciated..

Cheers,

[the19thbear]

You have to check for irq conflicts - sounds to me like the card is conflicting with your USB ports (mouse)
DIsable all the ports you dont need (and everything else for that matter, like onboard sound etc, that shares irqs with the scope card)
If you still get conflicts, try putting the card into another PCI slot - that would give the scope card another irq adress and probably avoid conflicts.

[garyb]

for sure the problem isn't the software version, although there are reasons to upgrade.

there are many possible causes of trouble...

do you have a midi keyboard controller connected? connect a midi monitor to the card's midi source in the routing window. if you see active sensing messages, either turn off active sensing in the controller(the best solution) or use a midi filter in between the card's midi source and the sequencer midi destination.

is the card sharing an irq with anything? if so, what exactly?

in the device manager, find the card and open properties. if the box "reset board if idle" is checked, uncheck it.

[mindscan]

wow,

Fast reactions, thx guys Well, I had some experience before with this card on IRQ conflicts on my old system or PCI bus overflows. Things I could resolve back then and first things I checked on the new pc as well. But I admit I have to strip down further. This is what I tried so far yesterday:

I checked the IRQ (not sure but it was 19 or sg). It said that it was running fine without conflict. I find it strange that I read many times on this forum to check the IRQ, doesn't the mobo handle this? Anyway I checked my USB IRQ but actually I found 2 IRQ settings which were different than the scope one. Following USB devices are connected now:
3 external drives (disconnected 1 already as test, no solution) , 1 reciever for wireless mouse, 1 USB keyboard (cable). Now I wouldn't suspect these items since they were also connected on my old pc without problems unless the new Mobo has a different USB bus structure and I was lucky on the old pc? Just as a test I will connect a PS/2 keyboard this eve, so if my mouse freezes and my PS2 keyboard as well, then I am sure not USB connected. Anyway thx for the hints because this is 1 thing i didn't try yet.
By the way, supose it's an IRQ conflict, wouldn't it report it in the event viewer because there are no events..

Following step I would consider place the card in the other remaining PCI slot, now I just did a reseat in the same slot. I move the card this evening.

I did read some issues here sometimes with XP running SP3, although I find it hard to believe it could be a driver issue since SP3 compared with SP2 is more windows security stuff, don't see a relation to the scope driver. By the way, just to make sure, there is no firewall and no anti-virus running during this test phase..


Final step i would consider (but really last resort), complete reinstall of windows XP and get back to SP2 (all official software by the way), than just clean install scope 4.5 and test run for some days on a stripped down system. But these are all time consuming processes. It just frustrates me that it's a complete freeze, so not even a dump or blue screen. the screen just becomes like a photo, so nothing to find in the event viewer which leaves me pretty clueless..

Ciao,

[the19thbear]

If you have ps2 ports on your motherboard, then use them and disable all usb stuff...
I doesnt matter if windows says that you dont have any conflicting irqs, you have to check manually - im on a mac irght now at work and dont remember what exactly you have to press to find it, but go into device manager, and the switch the way you view things, until you see a row of all irq's and their devices, if scope shares irqs with anything like usb/onboard sound etc, disable them... and yes.. move the card to a different slot:) Acutally do this first. it might solve everything, and you dont have to disable anything..

[garyb]

fine without conflict is windows opinion, which has nothing to do with the actual reality, possibly.

if you want help, you should follow my suggested steps first.

to check for irq sharing go to start\programs\accessories\system tools\system information\hardware resources\conflicts/sharing. look for the scope card in the list. if you find it, then tell me what, EXACTLY it is sharing with(or better yet, attach a screenshot) and i'll tell you the next step.

as long as there isn't a hardware problem like a bad power supply, bad ram, bad motherboard, etc, this is a simple setup issue.

[mindscan]

Garyb,

Can this actually cause a conflict ? "reset board if idle"

I am a bit intrigued by the fact that keyboard and mouse are USB and both freeze. So maybe the system is still ok and you are right and card conflicts on the USB bus. I remember yesterday I had the freeze on the exact moment I started a copy between 2 USB drives and 1 USB blue led started to flicker like crazy, so seemed it also hang. So maybe I do have to pin down the problem on USB although in my device manager I don't have anywhere an exlamation mark and I still recall in the old days if there was an IRQ conflict the device manager would tell you. So in my eyes everything looks fine.

Actually the test with the USB mouse in combination with a PS2 keyboard should give me some answers if it's an USB bus freeze or not..
But if USB problem, that would leave me with another issue. I would prefer to keep my external drives since I need them, and also the keyboard is an illuminated one, hard to replace by sg PS/2.
Mouse the same, I prefer a wireless and those are always with USB. Maybe keyboard I could find a solution USB to PS2 adapter, but the other devices, and apart from that they were all working perfectly on my old pc.....

So I will really need to find a work around if it's an USB problem. If IRQ, I don't see a way to change IRQ in the Luna (and I think not possible). I will test in the other PCI slot, maybe it will give me another IRQ number and than test again for some days..

Well, i'll let you know in some days. Not gonna give up just like that. And if ok, I also see no reason anymore than move to scope 5.1 and 64bit (bit pricy upgrade, but I guess that's life) . Right now I just have to be sure it's not a hardware related issue and I can resolve it before I move on..


p.s. just read your answer where to check on sharing, I will do this this evening. Many thanks !

Cheers,

[mindscan]

Bear and garyb,

Both thank you for the usefull hints. I really appreciate this, been using scope since the begin days of Triple DAT so would hate to give up on this platform

Unfortunately I just checked on my new mobo and it lacks the PS2 connectors, seems they start to save on these ports, thus so far for the PS2 keyboard test

I will follow both advices this eve:

1) Insert the card in another slot.
2) Check in that system page on shared IRQ's Scope and take a screenshot or write down.
3) Disconnect all USB devices exept for the ones I can't do without, keyboard and mouse.
4) The new mobo also has USB3, test keyboard on USB3 and mouse on USB2 bus, maybe I can eliminate on a USB host controller..

Too bad I can't use a ps2 keyboard, this could have given me an answer if it's a USB problem or not..
But ok, I work in IT, so I know it's all about stripping down, eliminating.. unless it's a driver problem (but like I said worked fine on XP SP2, so even prepared to go back from SP3 to Sp2 via a fresh install).

Greetings,

[garyb]

it's not that hard, i promise.
even if there is a usb controller that is sharing an irq, it's not fatal. in fact, turning off a usb controller or two in no way eliminates usb from your computer, there are a number of usb controllers on a modern motherboard. more than you need even with usb mouse and keyboard.

v4.5 and xp are not new. i've been around the block. Sonic|Core does not support v4.5, they had nothing to do with it. i often answer support emails, however, so.....

my first post had questions. first thing would be to answer them. then the solution will be easy

btw- you're not doing audio processes while transferring data are you?

[mindscan]

Garyb,

I'll get back to you later this week with the information. I have some usefull info now how to move on to the next level of testing. Thx.

I don't mind trying the card in the other free slot, only bit close to the big cooling fan of my videocard (passive cooling on an Nvidea 9800) so will have to be carefull.
I will follow the advice on disabling some USB port. It's a fact that mobo has like 14 ports. I do need around 6 or 7, dongles, few harddrives, the typical stuff.

The freeze happens randomly. What worries me, it happens even if I exit the scope windows (real close) and cubase not even open, so nothing audio streaming or other stuff open. yesterday it happened when i wanted to copy something between 2 drives, nothing more than that. It's possible my cubase was open but nothing doing in it. But still, the drivers of scope can still be active in the background and maybe that's enough. just another idea, but just to be 100% sure I can test with a disabled scope driver. But normally this eve I will see if my XP without card and software installed is still running. If still no freeze and this after 18 hours, I will still play around a few hours and if still than ok, than I can be sure it's scope related (but pretty sure it's scope since the xp was fine for 4-5 days before trying to install the card the first time).

I realise sonic wants nothing to do with scope 4.5 since that was before their time. I can understand they don't answer my mails. On the other hand I proposed to change to 5.1 and buy their software if at least they can help me out a bit (still don't understand why they don't release a trial, this could catch alot of potential new customers). I don't mind spending money at it and at least it would push me a bit to try out on win 7 64

Anyway, i will allow myself some serious testing (strip down, check IRQ's, move card and so on, worse case fresh XP install..) if problems persist I will send you the IRQ share information. Something I can also test during a freeze, see if I can manipulate my system remote, so via the NIC, like copying something to a share. If that reacts, it can also pin out to the USB hanging, but of course if the USB hangs who knows, it can also stop the complete system..


I was already looking around for other vendor options. What strikes me is that alot is still running on classic PCI and alot on firewire and USB2. I find this strange choices since even firewire and USB are slower than classic PCI ?! Why don't more vendors move to PCI-e which is still the fastest. In the budget range I only found like EMU1212. As you can maybe understand an EMU board is the same or a bit cheaper price than upgrading to scope 5.1 and since I don't use the scope effects or synths (only routing in XTC to cubase) I have really doubts not to change to a more recent platform.
On the other hand, scope always gave me the prestine quality I'm not sure I would get from other "budget" products. I'm a semi professional so I don't need 2000 euro solutions eiher but nothing with crappy sound quality either..

Grz,

[mindscan]

Ok, getting more and more convinced I have an IRQ problem as the friendly forumembers pointed out. I'm not at my studio but I do recall the IRQ being 20, and if I search on that it's most of the times the IRQ of the USB 2.0 controller and he doesn't like that. It seems playing with the IRQ in the BIOS is also not without danger. My only hope lays in putting the card in the other slot or disabling the USB ports but disabling the USB is a path I prefer not to take ..
Anyway this is what I found:

The overall goal of IRQ troubleshooting is to track down shared IRQs at the hardware level, before XP boots, and to avoid having and add-on cards sharing IRQs with onboard resources. The only proper solution to an IRQ conflict in XP is to find a slot for the offending card that is not shared with other resources. And if you don't have a spare, unshared slot, either toss the card or toss your motherboard and get something better and more modern. That is not a joke.

especially that last sentence is a bit disturbing for me, hope I won't have to drive it that far...

Anyway, I will be starting to work on this in some hours. I will let you know if succesfull and if so what i did so it can be usefull for other members...

[mindscan]

Ok, some follow up.

I moved the scope board to another PCI slot and it seems to me it took another IRQ. It still shares, but can you really avoid this with so many devices using little available IRQ's?
I think it was original at 19 or 20 and those were IRQ shares with the SATA controllers, so maybe diskaction like copying files could have been an issue here..

Anyway it doesn't share with USB host controllers nor SATA today,and the stuff it does share with seems at first sight not crucial to cause the keyboard/mouse freezing. Here is waht hardware resources says:

IRQ 18 Intel(R) 82579/Gigabit network connection (have to keep an eye on this, what if scope is runing and I'm on the internet?..)
IRQ 18 Intel 6 series /C200 series chipset family express Root port 3 - 1C14
IRQ 18 Intel 82801 Pci bridge - 244E
IRQ 18 Pci standard PCI to PCI bridge
IRQ 18 Creamware DSP-board.


Furthermore the windows XP was open together with cubase BUT without the scope card inserted nor the scope software and no freeze after 18 hours. Since freezing ocured maximum within a few hours I am pretty sure now my problem is scope related and probably hardware IRQ.

I didn't install the scope software yet and will let the XP run again in idle status for at least 3-4 hours, then start testing , install scope, do some cubase, copy some files to external USB disk, download stuff from internet. If no more freezing and next day either I will close this thread. If still freeze (don't need internet while working, so least of my concern if conflict with NIC) than I hope the IRQ information in this message can help?..

As for now no action required until I'm sure the pc can run troublefree..

I didn't find any tune option IRQ related in the BIOS and not jumping to mess with that either..

Grz,

[mindscan]

Well, no luck. Wanted to install the scope oftware, meanwhile I was copying a folder from 1 drive to another and bang everything froze again.
Only left to do right now me is remove all USB devices and only keep mouse and keyboard. Hard to believe it's USB related though, not only the keyboard and mouse stop but the windows just freezes, that means no progress bar on the copying tab between disks, so system really halted.

I'm close to giving up. I don't think there is a way to reasign IRQ's and I already tried my 2 only PCI slots. I can change the computer CPU from ACPI to standard pc so you can manually adjust IRQ but I think that would toss away my multiprocessor and make it a uni processor, so what's the use of that?..

I already wasted hours and nights on this and since soniccore is not really answering my mails either I'm close now to move away from Scope and change to Saffire, at least that's firewire and shouldn't conflict. If only scope had some trial software on the 5.1, at least I could check with a new driver. Or if somebody would be willing to help here, just with a recent XP driver, much appreciated. I would buy the upgrade but i'm at a point where I'm really not willing to take the risk of paying 159 euro and than find myself still stuck with a frozen pc because of IRQ issues

Such a shame after all these years I really can't seem to figure
this one out, but I can't afford much more downtime anymore either, have to move on or I will end up with a total nervouse break down..

[the19thbear]

Im 99% sure its not a scope software issue - it could be alot of other things.. .computers are weird sometimes..
-A silly question but: did you update all your drivers? not just scope.. everything.
Set all your bios stuff to default? (and apply the soniccore tweaks in the bios as well)
-If you feel like spending more time, you could try with windows 7 32bit and see if that works better.
I have had about 10 different cards in 4 different machines and i have NEVER had the problem you are having.

It could be a bad Luna card as well, that overheats and then your computer stops working...
do you have another card you can put in to check??

[garyb]

you are running in circles.

why not try it my way?

disabling USB controllers is NOT disabling USB ports, necessarily. you also need to disable the proper controller. they have names like 2HBYC or similar....

first, check for shared irqs. then tell me what is sharing. then i'll tell you what to do. not all sharing is fatal. please go back to the first slot and tell me what's shared.

irqs are controlled by the OS. there's no manual control possible, not if you want the os to work properly...

reread my first post. eliminate the "reset board if idle". eliminate possible active sensing. go to power options and be sure the the computer does NOT sleep or hibernate.

[mindscan]

Bear and Garyb,

Thanks for not giving up on me I will give some answers:

All drivers are up to date, that is to say mobo, controllers, videocard and so on..
I will have to check that card idle status, something I forgot to do.
As far as USB controllers are concerned, I will give it a try. But unfortunately the motherboard has no PS2 so at least I have to keep something USB enabled in order to have a working keyboard/mouse.

Usefull tip on trying on win 7 32bit, would mean a reinstall but ok. The thing is I now have a dual boot but with win 7 64 bit and there I see the same IRQ 18 shares as in my windows XP session. Furthermore I read something that the scope 4.5 driver should also be ok for Win 7 32bit but I read mixed stories around that..


The rest of the evening my situation was as followed. Booted back in Win 7 64 bit, since scope 4.5 doesn't p^rovide me the right driver the scope driver can't be charged, so not recognised, no IRQ assigned. Fact is the OS runs 100% stable. Installed a spare M-audio audiophile (whic provide me a free win 7 64 bit driver ) and for the time being I can move on. I do notice a difference in audioquality but ok a 100 euro external soundactrd compared to one 6 tome smoer expensiev shouldn't be a surprise. Fact is, with the M-audo and no scope driver in Win 7 64bit everythings works perfectly, no freezes at all, so I do suspect some IRQ conflict once I load scope. Since this seems hardware I am really afraid to invest 159 euro to upgrade my platform.


These are the IRQ's in win xp once I loaded the scope driver/card:

IRQ 18 Intel(R) 82579/Gigabit network connection (have to keep an eye on this, what if scope is runing and I'm on the internet?..)
IRQ 18 Intel 6 series /C200 series chipset family express Root port 3 - 1C14
IRQ 18 Intel 82801 Pci bridge - 244E
IRQ 18 Pci standard PCI to PCI bridge
IRQ 18 Creamware DSP-board.

I will try both your last tips but after that I am close to move forward to another pro platform..

Anyway, many thanks again for the extra tips

Cheers

[garyb]

DUDE-

please don't freewheel. you're making this harder than it need be. again, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DISABLE ALL USB. you may need to disable a CONTROLLER or two. controllers are not assign to specific ports.

v4.5 does NOT work with win7, PERIOD. it works GREAT with xp sp3, NO problems.

if you think that a crappy m-audio box fills your needs, by all means, go for it. don't blame the Scope card though. you must set the computer up correctly first, then it will be the most stable app in your system. i have high-level professional clients who use this hardware LIVE for years without issues. your problems are EASY, but only if you follow directions.

please put the card back in the first slot and tell me what it is sharing with.

the Scope card is for REALTIME audio. REALTIME processes cannot wait for their turn with the cpu. modern motherboards have a TON of garbage that has nothing to do with making music and these extra, mostly UNUSED features take resources, so there are always a few devices to disable. again, IT'S NO BIG DEAL. it has NOTHING to do with drivers.

[mindscan]

Garyb,

Not freewheeling and I already followed up some of the advices.
I will put back the card in the other slot this evening and send you the IRQ shares + check that idle process. I will check on those USB as well.
So I will follow 100% your guidelines

For me ok to stay with windows XP and 4.5. If stable I can still consider upgrade to 5.1. M-audio is just my backup and it was not meant to say that I would change, it's not for definitive recording, but at least it keeps me going till problems resolved. I totally agree Scope is high end compared to M-audio. To say M-audi is crap, maybe bit harsh though, it's just a cheap solution for when things like this happen and at least I can already do midirecording where there is still no audiorecording involved. I'm not crazy either to move from a high level solution to something mediocre. I do commercial cd productions on scope, so it's vital I have quality A/D convertors.

Fact is, if freeze problem can't be solved on the new motherboard, the card will move back to my old system. Don't get me wrong, I'm beyond the point of frustration and already glad the problem can be narrowed down to a PCI IRQ stuff. So no angry feelings, I work on scope from the very beginning end 90's, that says enough. I was clueless at first, at least now thx to forum help I'm getting close to the problem, which hopefully leads close to a solution as well

I will get back with the information later on..

Cheers,

[mindscan]

Ok, here is what I did.

Reseated back the Luna card in the first one I tried and shared IRQ gives me this now:

IRQ 19 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 4 - 1C16
IRQ 19 JMicron JMB36X Controller
IRQ 19 Creamware DSP-Board
IRQ 19 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 8 - 1C1E
IRQ 19 Marvell 91xx SATA 6G Controller

Don't need the Marvel, that is something I can disable. Don't wanna mess with chipset and the JMB36 is my main sata drive controller, I need that for my harddrives.

then : disconnectes ALL USB devices except for keyboard and mouse.
reset board if idle is standard ON, I'll check back on your previous post if it has to be on or off. By the way just had a freeze writing this so disconnecting all USB is not the answer

Furthermore I will diasble now USB controllers, just have to make sure I don't diasable by accident my mouse, so I will do after this message..

I don't wanna sound negative but I think the motherboard is ok voor general use, but crap for audio production via PCI bus. So don't get me wrong, in no way I break down scope on this one but if this is how it is I will get back to my old system and use the new for videoproduction where I don't need Asio, no problem.

Anyway, not giving up that fast either. So resources I can disable without consequense for the mobo I will do so (USB, NIC, Marvell, other...).

Here are all the IRQ's:

IRQ 0 System timer OK
IRQ 5 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller - 1C22 OK
IRQ 8 System CMOS/real time clock OK
IRQ 9 Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System OK
IRQ 13 Numeric data processor OK
IRQ 16 2nd generation Intel(R) Core(TM) processor family PCI Express Controller - 0101 OK
IRQ 16 NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT OK
IRQ 16 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 2 - 1C12 OK
IRQ 16 ASMedia XHCI Controller OK
IRQ 17 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 1 - 1C10 OK
IRQ 17 ASMedia XHCI Controller OK
IRQ 17 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 5 - 1C18 OK
IRQ 17 VIA OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller OK
IRQ 18 Intel(R) 82579V Gigabit Network Connection OK
IRQ 18 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 3 - 1C14 OK
IRQ 18 Intel(R) 82801 PCI Bridge - 244E OK
IRQ 18 PCI standard PCI-to-PCI bridge OK
IRQ 19 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 4 - 1C16 OK
IRQ 19 JMicron JMB36X Controller OK
IRQ 19 Creamware DSP-Board OK
IRQ 19 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 8 - 1C1E OK
IRQ 19 Marvell 91xx SATA 6G Controller OK
IRQ 20 Intel(R) Desktop/Workstation/Server Express Chipset SATA AHCI Controller OK
IRQ 21 Intel(R) Management Engine Interface OK
IRQ 22 Microsoft UAA Bus Driver for High Definition Audio OK
IRQ 23 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller - 1C2D OK
IRQ 23 Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller - 1C26 OK


If you find something suspicious let me know.
I will do more testing this week on stability and disable what I can that. reinstall of the OS? last chance, but not really eager to go that far anymore.
I have no carcked software insatlled not other sofwtare than Scope and cubase, no virusses, no firewall, CPU runs at 1 or 2% , no memory leaks, nothing, so pretty virgin system besides the tons of resources a new mobo takes for itself...

regards,

[mindscan]

Reset board idle : just unchecked it !