Hall of fame feedback

[niceboy]

Since Harold Stephen Black is dead since 1983 ,
and its kind of funny that its first today that I could find this site.
http://www.invent.org/hall_of_fame/16.html
Its a more clear and truthfull article of what it is,
and that we couldn´t find before.
Its still not clear in the article for some reason I dont know,
that feedback is the active part of amplification.
It might be because its so controversial for some people,
or something political also today it seems.
People was attacking his Invention for more than 10 years ,
before the Patent was passed.
That was officially between 1927 and 1934,
but other sources ducuments from before 1922.
Telling it was used for recordings 1922 and also privately before that.
We will find more ways to defend attacks on this technic,
that is used also on analog computers ,
and for Voices on Radio Stations.
Its also controversial because its not possible ,
to do really good recordings without using it.
Sonic Core Scope is still the only application in the World,
that was made to use this technic also in the Digital World.
That was not made clear when a new plugin came this year,
called feedback and it also have a filter.
So lets be more frank.
This new plugin is very usefull for us ,when we make amplification
on the Master Reverb in Scope.
For drums , feedback is the only way to have that really good sound.
For Voice its of course better than without .
And online instruments also of course.
The most important part of feedback though,
is the feedback amp that we make inside the mixer.
That can make you go to another level.
in terms of mixing.
Specially in Hard Rock.
Also in Jazz of course.
To have a really good piano sound ,
on recordings and live with a large setup ,
Its of course the best to do.
If they have it on Radio Stations ,
it might be something thats good
In many ways I agree with what Ralf Dressel told me.
The PCI version of Scope is better than Xite he said.
I have seen that now clearly with our 45 dsp setup.
We might need to ask for permission
to teach here how to do feedback .
I dont know but it seems like that now.
In america its a more open situation for feedback.
Europe is not yet that open minded.
A lot of Rock Bands are using it.
Only the best of course.

Bear

[Eanna]

Hi, guess what I found?
A website dedicated to you!

http://bullshitaudiotechnic.wordpress.com/

There happens to be decent free VSTs there... But, the name man, the name!

[niceboy]

Hi, guess what I found?
A website dedicated to you!

http://bullshitaudiotechnic.wordpress.com/

There happens to be decent free VSTs there... But, the name man, the name!

I dont know but this forum was supposed to be free from comments,
and questions.
Forum rules.
Its also so that VST plugin companies like NI already have plugins working in MADI,
that we use.
It is Waves but its also Reason and Toon Tracks live,
from Sweden
That is in the RME HDSPe MADI dsp based soundcard that we use.
So why dont you talk to them instead about your problem.
Bear

[wayne]

Bear, your posts are truly gibberish. Why are you doing this here on Z? It is like an algal bloom.

[dante]

What's Holger's opinion? He has background in both broadcasting and DSP.

He may well just say that whilst feedback has a proven and historic technique in the analog world, its main uses are for correction of deficiencies inherent in analog circuitry (instability in voltage gain, instability in output impedance, insufficient bandwidth).

Digital audio is in itself a correction to many of these issues, and voltage / gain instabilities are not an outcome of math applied to calculations of the 0's and 1's of the digital world.

[netguyjoel]

He was banned from my forum.....

[niceboy]

Bear, your posts are truly gibberish. Why are you doing this here on Z? It is like an algal bloom.

I think its time to use Scope for this as it was ment to be used for,
and that is what Ralf Dressel told me.
Its also so that the american professor in soundtechnic ,
that introduced me to Scope told me that it was ment to do here.
Also in Digital gear.
Almost everything what I said and showed is from the americans .
I dont understand some words you use ,but I am also connected to America,
through my studies in music on Bachelors Degree level in New York .
So maybe they dont agree with you in New York either.
Maybe you did use other ways there.
Here on the Swedish Radio they have used the Negative Feedback Amplifier.
That is mainly PHD Jan Berg here that was building them for the radio.
He has been teaching in the Swedish technical university now for maybe 5 years.
Now its seems he stopped with that.
Its ok to ask ,but it was maybe wrong of me to say all Radio Stations then.
I think the Amp is great and it works for us and at least when PHD Jan Berg,
worked for the Swedish Radio ,it worked for them.
I dont understand your point.
You havn't used it so we cant use it or what.
Gary told me here somewhere that he knows about it,
but he has probarbly not used it ,so its maybe going to be used here in Scope now.
Whatever you want to say and do ,cant stop that in my opinion.
Bear

[Eanna]

What I don't get is what the problem is.
What exactly cannot be simulated in DSP code? There is always the possibility of high sample rates giving loads of headroom to allow you soft clip audio. If you need a particular flavour of sound or noise that would be associated with overloaded analog circuits, you can use proven analysis/emulation techniques to simulate it.

A few posts back, you didn't know what iZotope made... asking if they did Scope devices - amongst lots of other quality VSTs, they make Ozone - probably the most ubiquitous of ITB Mastering Suites for some years now - it's at version 5 now...
You also didn't seem to realise that the Visualiser from tgstgs/GOST is exactly what you require if you want to ensure that any routing of devices in Scope is indeed coming close to simulating what you wish to simulate.
You say you've spent ages trying to do this. What it appears to me is that you need to contact DSP experts in an academic context in order to frame your requirements and to come up with some devices that you can trial and A/B with your real hardware, not a disinterested userbase of Scope community users - well, we haven't been very helpful, have we? You have a degree (in audio?) - so, use the contacts back in your alma mater!

I don't want to put you off. I'm glad that you seem to have stopped being angry with others on this site. What I'm attempting here is to point you in a direction, to give you some focus, as your posts are very rambling!

Doing 'feedback' generically isn't important, it's more that you want to mimic the sound of some particular analog circuits? If you wish to emulate the sound of analog circuits, then you need to find or write an emulation of that particular circuit, and program it to respond to feedback'ed/hot input signals. There is no guarantee that existing devices have been programmed to handle hot signals so as to respond as an overloaded analog circuit would. If chaining devices doesn't cut it, then there's every chance that hardwiring a feedback path in a device won't work either...

What's important is the 'sound' of analog feedback, not the fact of feeding output back into input. I.e. if it sounds right, and that did not involve feeding back or forward or whatever, but instead had some clever DSP code to simulate the sound, then you've reached your goal? Like the better 1176 emulations out there - they sound good to my ears! FXpansion have DCAM technology - discrete component modelling - and produced their 1176 emulation. Maybe that's the kind of DSP technology you should be investigating?

[niceboy]

What I don't get is what the problem is.
What exactly cannot be simulated in DSP code? There is always the possibility of high sample rates giving loads of headroom to allow you soft clip audio. If you need a particular flavour of sound or noise that would be associated with overloaded analog circuits, you can use proven analysis/emulation techniques to simulate it.

A few posts back, you didn't know what iZotope made... asking if they did Scope devices - amongst lots of other quality VSTs, they make Ozone - probably the most ubiquitous of ITB Mastering Suites for some years now - it's at version 5 now...
You also didn't seem to realise that the Visualiser from tgstgs/GOST is exactly what you require if you want to ensure that any routing of devices in Scope is indeed coming close to simulating what you wish to simulate.
You say you've spent ages trying to do this. What it appears to me is that you need to contact DSP experts in an academic context in order to frame your requirements and to come up with some devices that you can trial and A/B with your real hardware, not a disinterested userbase of Scope community users - well, we haven't been very helpful, have we? You have a degree (in audio?) - so, use the contacts back in your alma mater!

I don't want to put you off. I'm glad that you seem to have stopped being angry with others on this site. What I'm attempting here is to point you in a direction, to give you some focus, as your posts are very rambling!

Doing 'feedback' generically isn't important, it's more that you want to mimic the sound of some particular analog circuits? If you wish to emulate the sound of analog circuits, then you need to find or write an emulation of that particular circuit, and program it to respond to feedback'ed/hot input signals. There is no guarantee that existing devices have been programmed to handle hot signals so as to respond as an overloaded analog circuit would. If chaining devices doesn't cut it, then there's every chance that hardwiring a feedback path in a device won't work either...

What's important is the 'sound' of analog feedback, not the fact of feeding output back into input. I.e. if it sounds right, and that did not involve feeding back or forward or whatever, but instead had some clever DSP code to simulate the sound, then you've reached your goal? Like the better 1176 emulations out there - they sound good to my ears! FXpansion have DCAM technology - discrete component modelling - and produced their 1176 emulation. Maybe that's the kind of DSP technology you should be investigating?

Its not that way at all here.
Whatever you say we have already proved to us and others ,
that feedback is important for us.
For you its not but thats not our business.
It can be simulated inside digital plugins.
Sending the signal into itself.
In Waves Maserati they do with quite a lot of gear emulated inside one plugin
The problem is that its too much latency to be approved in TDM,
Also I get much better sound in Scope doing that direct.
The sounds is riding on electrical signals optically here,
but its still electrical signals.
Feedback is also an amplifyer so thats where its so controversial.
Its working in Scope for us , just try and dont just say you know ,when you dont .
Scope is unik then ,because we can move the red connectors as if inside a semiconductor,
but if you havnt realised that yet, its not a war with the plugins we have.
Whats going on here is in my opinion , whats going on with ADAT to MADI,
that is mainly in RME that has made it possible to use the plugins there going into Scope
You can attack me or whatever ,the VST companies Reason and Toon Tracks live,
from Sweden here ,is very usfull for us ,but we go into Scope with them from MADI
That is more like equality to VST.
This cant be done in TDM either so.
They do it in TDM though , but still with big truck loads of gear.
They use like an Army of gear ,just to do feedback with analog gear into TDM
Just let us do this in Peace.
NI is in MADI also.
Bear

[Eanna]

I'm not attacking you man. And I'm not saying I have any answers.
Just trying to understand what the heck you're talking about, and to see if you are getting anywhere in your quest without what always looks to me like overcomplication.

Have you got some kind of drawing or something? Maybe use Google Translate? I don't think I'm alone when I say that I cannot follow your thoughts...

[niceboy]

I'm not attacking you man. And I'm not saying I have any answers.
Just trying to understand what the heck you're talking about, and to see if you are getting anywhere in your quest without what always looks to me like overcomplication.

Have you got some kind of drawing or something? Maybe use Google Translate? I don't think I'm alone when I say that I cannot follow your thoughts...

Later I might help you out.
I am now first going to do the Ultimate Amp here inside Scope .
Using the DC blocker that can be used for that I have been told.
Bear

[dante]

Applying Occams Razor:

If the sound of feedback can be calculated mathematically then why would a developer need to run output back into input ?

[niceboy]

Applying Occams Razor:

If the sound of feedback can be calculated mathematically then why would a developer need to run output back into input ?

I have just told here that in Waves Maserati they are doing feedback inside the plugin.
Its not possible with this low latency we have in Scope.
Maserati is ok but we get better sound in Scope
On Aux is no latency at all because we can go back to the same point.
Without the fbk plugin thats 1 sample.
Today I am going to try that DC blocker JK superstar mentioned.
Its maybe not an issue for free plugins like LE-I you think,
but think about it for a while .
We will use it because now its the best plugin for us.
Its working best on low level thats how amplifiers work inside.
Also he is saying it is a tube.
Thats also controversial ,people just dont want to believe
that there is a digital tube.
Thats not our problem either.
We must spend more time recording now.
Bear

[wayne]

we get better sound in Scope

Better than what, Bear?

[dante]

12AX7 has been part of Scope Modular for years so I don't think belief in digital tube is an issue here.

Again, just a mathematical model of analog behaviours.

[wayne]

Would it not be time to call all this obfuscularity for what it is Dante?

As an aside, the two 12AX7s in the pre of my old Woogie 400W bass head have only been replaced once in 20 years - very reliable source of tone

[niceboy]

we get better sound in Scope

Better than what, Bear?

Better than the Maserati plugin in Waves ,
that is ok but its on VST level ,
in terms of Latency.
Therefore they are not used in TDM.
Its better you ask someone else maybe,
Maybe Modular because they allow feedback,
in theire mixers.
That was Dawman here who mentioned that.
Bear

[dante]

Would it not be time to call all this obfuscularity for what it is Dante?

Possibly. I'm waiting on one more opinion.

[niceboy]

Would it not be time to call all this obfuscularity for what it is Dante?

Possibly. I'm waiting on one more opinion.

Opinions does not count so much anymore.
RME dsp is working together with Sonic Core dsp,
as two leading dsp applications.
TDM is pretenders also ,and are going down more now.
All sorts of analog users with old technic ,
will discuss instead of starting to do.
ADAT is so large so keep on discussing.
The Stockmarket is not waiting for you.
We play music and also invent new things.
Bear

[Mr Arkadin]

This is in the Tips and Tricks section. I am still awaiting a tip or a trick that I can use. I haven't seen one yet so it's been reported as "Off Topic". This crap has to end.