PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

I'm just testing the waters at the moment. I have an Xite-1 on the horizon which will replace the Scope Pro and XTC cards I've been using. I'm the original owner of both cards. The XTC is only used as extra DSP for the Scope board. Truth be told, I never used it in the normal XTC mode. The XTC card has a revision number 2.1 and has 6 DSP chips. The larger Scope card has 14 DSP chips.

The XTC card is exactly 13 years old. The Scope card is newer but I don't remember the exact purchase date off-hand. I think it was purchased maybe two years later (2004 or 2005). I still have the original packaging and documentation for both cards too. I may even still have the original purchase receipts buried somewhere. Both cards were purchased here in the United States. Been used here in my home-based studio. The computer and the cards have never left the studio. The Scope Pro has the original cable whip in excellent condition.

I don't know what (if anything) they're worth these days. Any reasonable offer will be considered. Even an unreasonable offer will be considered lol. Mostly I'll just be happy they end up in a good home. I would like to sell both cards at the same time but would consider selling them separately.

The only other thing worth mentioning is the STDM ribbon cable assembly that connects the two cards together inside the PC. I sort of cannibalized the original cables and made custom assemblies that were shorter than the originals. This may, or may not, be useful to you. But if you needed a longer ribbon cable you would need to purchase the raw materials and perhaps make new ones. The connectors are still good but you'd need the flat ribbon cable material.

The Xite unit has been ordered and will hopefully be here before the end of the month. If anyone's interested in these cards, hit me up and we'll work something out. I can ship to Europe but any taxes, fees and shipping costs would be your responsibility. I won't ship until I the funds have cleared. I can accept Paypal.

Sorry shoulda mentioned its the Z-Link version with 16 channels of Z-Link I/O, 8 channel of ADAT, SPDIF and RCA analog IO

Maybe a bit of food for thought.

Having both an Xite and PCI-cards, I'd recommend that you test how all the plugins, you use a lot, works on the XITE before you get rid of your PCI cards.

For example, you get much better performance on John Bowens synths when they run on the PCI cards than on the XITE, which is one of the important reasons why I decided to keep my PCI-system as well, in the same machine.

i would second that

save the cards put them in a hp workstation and use them for synths and modular under 32bit

you will get all the samplers and sts modular osc working great and just use the second machine as a hardware synth box i do this with my second scope system

you then get best of both worlds as stated not all plugs are xite upgraded and actually work porly on the xite compared to the pci cards

like the jb synths that were designed with the pci cards

his pci system is still what he owns

That's interesting. What's the problem with running the synths on Xite-1? Something to do with the different chipset?

I'll be honest, I have rarely ever used any of the Scope synths here in my studio. I used a few of them some years ago for some minor video soundtrack work but that's not something I excel at, nor do I promote my services in that direction. I really only care about multi-track recording and mixing for local rock bands and other local musicians. If there are keyboard tracks needed the artists will either use my Korg Triton or bring their own equipment in. In 15 years of operation no one has ever approached me and asked what soft-synths I have. It just never comes up.

This Xite device is probably major overkill for what I do here but it's time to move on and that's the only thing remotely similar to what I have now.

The synths and some other devices are not optimized to run on the XITE, and the result for synths are fewer voices and sluggish performance interacting with the device, than what you get with Scope running on a pci-system.

From what you describe about your needs, these problems does not sound as something that will affect you though.

If however you use a lot of third party devices, especially older devices, the advice again is to test their performance on the XITE before you sell your pci-system.

krizrox wrote:That's interesting. What's the problem with running the synths on Xite-1? Something to do with the different chipset?

Most synths work and most FX too.
All synths incl. in SCOPE v5.1 work, STS samplers work in 32Bit only, included arpeggiator/sequencer devices might have issues.
ZARG small synths,- Orion Custom SC, CombPlusPro, Ambient SC and DarkStar run all on XITE-1 and PCI card.
ZARG Pro ONe v3 and Pro Wave v1.2.1 run also on XITE-1 as well as PCI card.
ZARG´s big synths are the culprits,- Solaris v5, Quantum Wave, Rotor EX ...
These need a lot of "communication channels" because they offer so much modulation busses etc.
You can use 1 or 2 voices on XITE-1 which is annoying, but when you use Solaris v5 on a 14 or 15 DSP PCI card it might run smoother but polyphony wise, you cannot expect much more,- 3 voices at max and depending on complexity of patch.
But when you have 3 14 DSP PCI cards,- that´s possibl the best for big ZARG synths.

John said S|C knew very well since XITE-1 came out and he also mentioned on hardware Solaris all components work on the synth itself but w/ XITE and PCI card systems, a lot of stuff runs on host computer domain which is the bottleneck,- but it´s also a fact he designed a lot w/ SDK 3, never owned a XITE as also not SDK5.

krizrox wrote: This Xite device is probably major overkill for what I do here but it's time to move on and that's the only thing remotely similar to what I have now.

XITE-1 is a great audio/MIDI interface for digital recording and stock SCOPE FX are great too, at least for me.
99% of all the freeware devices offered here in the forum worked on my XITE-1 w/ SCOPE in 32Bit.
When you go 64Bit,- not all will work up to now, but there will be still enough working well.

When you use Modular synth,- all work on my XITE-1 w/ Win 32Bit.
AFAIK,- w/ 64Bit systems, only sample OSCs in modular aren´t working and very few modules.
I don´t know about Flexor modules because I don´t own.

I agree on keeping a old 32Bit machine w/ the PCI cards is great, but some run both, the PCI cards and XITE together w/ the same machine and spread devices across cards and XITE.
I myself, I use 2 32Bit machines,- one w/ the card and the other w/ XITE-1.

I´m much too lazy giving up my old setup and buy and set up 64Bit machines, then loosing tons of native plugins as also SCOPE devices.
I really prefered giving a s##t on GB sample libraries and go 32Bit until we see SCOPE 6.

For my big ZARG synths, I´ll pay for a key transfer from XITE back to PCI soon.

I´d like to find a "naked" (no software) 14 DSP booster card 1st though.

Bud

hey thanks for the explanations!

krizrox wrote:hey thanks for the explanations!

hope it helped ...

theoretically I´d buy one of your cards but it´s expensive shipping cards from US or UK to germany and paying duties (VAT & customs) in addition.
The other direction, when I sold stuff to UK or US, was much cheaper for the buyers.
I hope and prefer finding a booster in germany or any EU country offering low shipping costs and no VAT and customs to pay then.

As long as I own 2 working socket 775 mobos, PCI cards and SCOPE will serve me well w/ discontinued WinXP and 32Bit.
I´m stuck w/ NI Komplete 7 and Phead Reason 6.5 that way, but surprisingly all the latest installers of Presonus Studio One Pro v2.+ worked as did Reaper,- now v4.75.
None of the some very good native freeware plugins or updates refused to work or install on my machines.
In fact, you´d lose the payware, forcing you upgrading to Win7 or 8,- just only because they upgrade their installers.
Sometimes, a workaround is using "Universal Extractor" extracting files from the installer, but requires knowledge about what belongs to where.

Fortunately, both my mobos offer PCIe x1 slots too and that´s right for XITE-1.
Can be PCIe standards make some difference though.
My mobos are PCIe v1.1 and possibly v2.0 is an improvement.

According to XITE machines, I think sooner or later we´ll have an assortment of devices across the pallette, all working well on 64Bit OSes.
Can be some of the old stuff won´t run anymore but might be replaced by other devices then.

Bud

I understand about the fees, taxes and such. I had to ship an A16 to Ferrofish a few months ago for repair. Just the cost to ship there and back was almost not worth it. I shipped ground USPS to save a few bucks but it took probably a month to ship there and back (not including the repair time). I was down for two full months while that thing was out.

And dont get me started on the whole 32 bit/64 bit thing. I thought I was bringing up the rear of the pack when I jumped on the 64 bit bandwagon earlier this year. What a nightmare. I came away from all that thinking that 64 bit was just a pipedream. I understand why it might be great for composers who need sample libraries and such but that ain't me.

Anyway... if it was easy everyone would be doing it lol

The wheels are turning. Xite-1 was ordered yesterday and I'm hopeful the unit will be here before the end of the month.

krizrox wrote:That's interesting. What's the problem with running the synths on Xite-1? Something to do with the different chipset? .

See John Bowens second post here. Its regarding interconnections. XITE-1 doesn't have enough. PCI does.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31740

only the most demanding of the Zarg synths have limited polyphony...

Solaris has trouble running on my 3 pro card system. And I have all 5 STDM cables and all that. I can maybe get 5 voices out of it before an error pops up.

-Tom

dante wrote: ... interconnections. XITE-1 doesn't have enough. PCI does.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31740

I´ve read that post too and I think it´s only a fraction of the truth.
Why should a PCI card, using older and smaller/slower DSPs and less count of DSPs in general compared to XITE-1, offer more interconnections than XITE-1 which is connected to the computer via PCIe?
What does "interconnection" really mean in that case?

When talking about the issue over at JB Synth Design forums, John said it´s because on SCOPE systems, some stuff is running in host computer domain which is the bottleneck.
I assume he meant RAM usage and operating the synth(s) via GUI on computer screen.
But something being connected via PCIe should be faster and have more bandwidth than a PCI device, isn´t it ?

Bud

garyb wrote:only the most demanding of the Zarg synths have limited polyphony...

Well, it´s not only a matter of polyphony.
There are patches in the preset list which won´t load on XITE-1 at all,- even if polyphony is 1 voice only.
This rules for Solaris v5 and Quantum Wave and sometimes also Rotor EX.
It might depend on on which DSP(s) a synth is loaded though.

But, you might get also other issues w/ the smaller devices,- Red Dwarf EX p.ex.,- when patch changes provocate exchange of "modules" inside the synth´s shell,- these can be different filters, OSCs or FX etc..
In that case patch change is very slow compared to S|C stock devices and there are audible artefacts too,- loud ones!

I also find it annoying and time consuming the synths, when using preset lists, try to load "modules" from locations which never existed on my machines before.
All in all, I got so many warning messages and popups w/ these devices I gave up using ´em on XITE-1.

It´s a shame these devices don´t run well on a XITE box because they have what we expect from cool synths, sound & functionality/architecture,- while OTOH they become creativity killers because of all the randomly occuring unexpected issues.

On a PCI card, even 15 DSPs, you cannot expect much more polyphony than w/ XITE-1 when we´re talking Solaris v5 and Quantum Wave,- 2 or 3 voices at max and depending on patch being loaded.
Some of the other issues mentioned above are only a bit better on the PCI card and far from being non-existing.

Anyway, I think devices for XITE-1 should be optimized for XITE.
I have the impression the ZARG devices are made much earlier than XITE appeared and w/ older SDK, possibly 3 or 4.
It should be mentioned in the shop which devices run well on XITE-1 and which not.


Bud

Bud Weiser wrote:Why should a PCI card, using older and smaller/slower DSPs and less count of DSPs in general compared to XITE-1, offer more interconnections than XITE-1 which is connected to the computer via PCIe?
What does "interconnection" really mean in that case?

'Inter' to me implies 'within' on the XITE board - nothing to do with PCIe. Either connections between DSP's, or atoms within a DSP.

As we all know, some XITE resources are consumed by providing compatibility between old and new DSP. Maybe that's why theres 'less connections' for his purposes available on XITE. I don't know exactly - but I'm guessing John does.

As for Solaris, I'd recommend Solaris Core. I can get 3 - 7 poly out of a measly 12 DSP on PCI and that's at 48KHz. It wouldn't be hard to make a bank of the best 10 sounds with 6 poly each (or 7 at 44KHz) by reducing some note stealing decay time, turning off FX or other stuffs that don't affect the sound much and that would have reasonable load times.

Thanks again for explaining the synth issues! Luckily, for me, those issues are a non-issue for me. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't use the soft-synths of Scope very often. In fact, it's been years since I've had a MIDI keyboard attached to Scope. I bought a few 3rd-party synths back when I first bought Scope but truth be told, never got any much use from them. They were mostly investments for the studio but no client ever asked about them (I do mention the soft synths on my website). My Korg Triton however, has gotten a lot of use. That keyboard paid for itself many times over. I will be sad if it ever craps out and I have to replace it. There's just not a lot of techo or prog bands here in the Chicago area that would care about such stuff. If there are, they almost always bring their own gear along. Give me your analog outs and we're good to go.

btw: I'd like to mention that I'm coming up on my 13th year in business. Creamware/Sonic Core has been the key to my business all these years. Scope/A16 made it all happen for me. I started out with TripleDAT in a little one-bedroom apartment here in town. The hallway between the living room and the bathroom was my make-shift vocal booth lol. I can't say enough good stuff about Scope and the A16. People ask me about my front-end all the time. I'm happy to explain it to them. Gary B and Holger have kept me running and now I'm very Xited about this new acquisition for my studio. I hope to be running with Scope for a very long time to come. Long live Sonic Core (and Ferrofish! )

dante wrote: 'Inter' to me implies 'within' on the XITE board - nothing to do with PCIe. Either connections between DSP's, or atoms within a DSP.

As we all know, some XITE resources are consumed by providing compatibility between old and new DSP. Maybe that's why theres 'less connections' for his purposes available on XITE. I don't know exactly - but I'm guessing John does.

Here´s what he said in 2008 ... http://forums.johnbowen.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=426

Here´s the 2014 discussion ... http://forums.johnbowen.com/viewtopic.p ... 452#p20733
read follow up posts too.

And here, he explains the issues according to "host domain" ...
http://forums.johnbowen.com/viewtopic.p ... 452#p20739

his words:
"So, there is some restrictions in handling the communication busses which are run in the host domain, not in the dsps."

Now, if that´s really the culprit, bandwidth and speed of computer connection matters and THEN, PCIe is MUCH better than PCI.

So, how many old 60MHz chips on a PCI card manage the communications and how many do on XITE-1 ?

On XITE-1 we have 4 (DSP #3 -6) each one communicating w/ one of the DSP slots, each housing 3 of the fast DSPs.
Regardless how many there are for communications on a PCI card, these are the same chips and cannot be faster.
So, I assume it´s XITE´s "slots" architecture causing issues and not the communication DSP(s) as also not the bandwidth of the computer connection (PCI vs PCIe).
I also think when you own a XITE-1D w/ only one of the fast chips in each slot,- you won´t be able loading as much devices as on XITE-1 but you also won´t run out of SAT (communication) connections that early because the 60MHz communication DSP just only has to deal w/ only one of the fast chips in a slot and not 3.

dante wrote: As for Solaris, I'd recommend Solaris Core.

O.k., but now we´re talking about future investments ...

Bud

krizrox wrote:Thanks again for explaining the synth issues! Luckily, for me, those issues are a non-issue for me. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't use the soft-synths of Scope very often. In fact, it's been years since I've had a MIDI keyboard attached to Scope. I bought a few 3rd-party synths back when I first bought Scope but truth be told, never got any much use from them.

When you run a studio and use SCOPE/XITE for recording, mixing, mastering, FX and some stock synths too, you´re fine,- and all this is worth the investment anyway !
There are also some ZARG synths which are Sonic Core editions, you see that in the names of these synths, there´s a "sc" at the end of the name,- and these run well.
I know you won´t,- but if you´d buy ProTone, which is an optional S|C device,- you´d get a Zarg Pro One as a Sonic Core edition synth, and ProTone runs excellent on XITE-1.

I think that´s important info for potential customers so they know they can run a lot of synths on XITE-1 and not only mixers, dynamics and FX.

But who´s thinking about investing EUR 299,- for complex polysynths like Solaris and/or Quantum Wave, which in the end are duophonic on the XITE-1,- he should be warned too.

krizrox wrote: My Korg Triton however, has gotten a lot of use. That keyboard paid for itself many times over. I will be sad if it ever craps out and I have to replace it.

All the hardware I own payed for itself for several times.
I think that is how it should be.
The KORG Triton was standard for a long time and is still a great workstation keyboard.
When it craps out, you´ll find it @ebay for a long time,- and we have "jhulk" here, running a synth repair shop and helping out over the pond I think.

krizrox wrote: I hope to be running with Scope for a very long time to come. Long live Sonic Core (and Ferrofish! )

Me too,- that´s why I picked up a XITE-1 2 1/2 years ago, and I wished the Ferrofish A16mkII had Z-Link connections.
I really hope it will get these in future.
My XITE-1 unboxing experience was really cool.
The build quality is really good and when I had it set up I was blown away by how good it sounds.
It sounds much better than the PCI card when comparing their analog outputs.
Since then, I don´t use the PCI cards analog out anymore and run ADAT out into the XITE-1 ADAT In, listening to both, XITE and PCI card via XITE-1 analog out.

Bud