PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hi...
Tired of expensive Steinberg Cubase updates. (the latest is 8.0 !!) I'm still using Cubase 5.1... I'm very interrested by the DAW which is subject of this thread. I already like its license philosophy.
I'm going to try it anyway : I noticed they give a full version for trying, during those small holidays (2 weeks, small off time in France, but let's make the most of it.)

!! BUT !!

There is at least 2 Cubase features I can't leave without... The first one is Variaudio, a feature exactly like Melodyne, impossible to say bye-bye to it.
And the second one, because I'm not a good piano player at all, the Cubase midi plugin "chorder", which let you play and build chords to play with one finger.. I know, I know, I'm ashamed... But to me, only what comes in your ears counts... I can't make full tracks with only percussions, battery & saxo all the time...

I'm quiet sure a chord midi plugin is inside Reaper... But for the Melodyne like feature ?? Or maybe there is no even chord midi plugin ??? Argh !

And also... But it's impossible Reaper doesn't have it, customizable 32 ASIO i/o for linking it to my Xite-1 / PCI Scope system.

So ... Will I be disapointed ?

Thanks !

I tried it in my Cubase wilderness years (the SX years) and never got on with it at all and ended up coming back to Cubase at version 5. It's easy enough to try though, maybe you'll get on better with it than I did.

If Reasons Neptune was as good as Cubase Variaudio, I could almost use Reason exclusively. That and Kontakt.

But Variaudio remains a 'must have'.

Hi JoPo;

I have been using Reaper for a few years now and i really like it. To me it's a lot like Scope in that it's a real bargain for the price and has a lot of depth to it that the casual user might overlook.
However, for me I started out using Cakewalk and then a very old version of Cubase and when the time came to pony up the money for a modern DAW I ended up trying Reaper and stayed.
Coming from any of the modern mainstream DAW's and switching to Reaper might be somewhat disappointing especially if you've become accustomed to the shiny bells and whistles add on's that these DAWs offer.......at a premium price.
Workflow is the thing that matters most though so perhaps it is worth the extra money. I mostly just record audio and the midi track is just there so I can go back and figure out what chords/notes I was playing when I recorded it.

That variaudio feature is kind of cool. I have had a studio vocalist for many years and usually finger in the chords, it is a lot of fun but like most vocoders it's hard to mask it's artificial nature. Have you tried the vocoders on the Scope? They're pretty amazing and some great 3rd party one's as well.
Good luck with your decision

JoPo wrote:
There is at least 2 Cubase features I can't leave without... The first one is Variaudio, a feature exactly like Melodyne, impossible to say bye-bye to it.

http://www.zplane.de/index.php?page=des ... -elastique
... under "references":
Steinberg Cubase 4 & 5 VariAudio is: Elastique Soloist V2
Steinberg Cubase 6 & 7 VariAudio is: Elastique ProV2, Elastique Soloist V2

http://www.reaper.fm/aboutaudio.php

... right hand column "advanced options":
Cockos Reaper time stretch is several algorithms incl. Elastique Pro V2
Reaper is now version v4.76,- so it isn´t correctly listed in the Zplane "references" which list all the applications "Elastique" is implemented in.

There are several pitch shift and pitch correction plugins in Reaper ...
http://www.reaper.fm/technical.php
"ReaPitch, ReaTune, and ReaVoice can be driven by any of REAPER's included pitch shifting engines, including Elastique 2 Pro."

Read about all in Reaper here:
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

JoPo wrote: And the second one, because I'm not a good piano player at all, the Cubase midi plugin "chorder", which let you play and build chords to play with one finger.

You want PizMIDI plugins (!!!) - download here ...
https://code.google.com/p/pizmidi/downloads/list

Piz "MidiChords" ...
http://www.vstcafe.com/2012/01/insert-p ... hords.html
It´s included in the download above.

JoPo wrote: And also... But it's impossible Reaper doesn't have it, customizable 32 ASIO i/o for linking it to my Xite-1 / PCI Scope system.

Audio routing in Reaper is the best of all DAWs out there anyway.

JoPo wrote: So ... Will I be disapointed ?

Yes, and you´ll be frustrated too,- for some period of time at least ...

Reaper is totally different from p.ex. Cubase.
You get frustrated when not reading the manual (before).
Lot´s of "right-clicking" p.ex.,- and you´ll need to download, install and learn SWS Extensions too because Reaper download is the "basic" feature set and SWS Extensions, well,- the professional extensions in regards of "actions".
http://sws.mj-s.com/

You´ll be also surprised there isn´t a VST instruments rack or fx rack, and there aren´t any track-classes.
A track is a track and it can playback anything,- audio, MIDI, video,- all at once in the same track too ...
The "channels/tracks have "receives",- not only "sends",- so any channel/track can be a input channel, instrument/FX channel, a buss, a FX return etc. ...
You´ll have to think totally different when using Reaper.
The real benefit of Reaper is it´s highly customizable, but to do that, you should have good knowledge about Reaper and what you want to do with it already.

The times when it was a basic digital audio workstation only are over, meanwhile you get a powerfull and advanced MIDI feature set too in Reaper, but it´s not really on par w/ Apple Logic or Cubase/Nuendo, even the evolution of Reaper is fast.
Studio One´s MIDI features ar also not on par w/ Apple Logic and Steini Cubendo and that also rules for many other DAW apps too.
You´ll definitely miss notation in Reaper.

I´m using Studio One Pro 2.64, Reason 6.5 and Reaper but I doubt I´d use Reaper as my one and only DAW application NOW.
But it is not far away from version 5 and for sure we can expect something from a big version upgrade.

Bud

Thanks, fellows for those nice advices.
It's very good news for me and my interrest about Reaper is bigger and bigger.

I like the fact that Reaper is full of widows which are full of options. I'm a crazy manual reader... More option there is, more possibilities are present.

Bud Weiser, about Elastique. I went to watch Elastique videos. The feature I like in Cubase is the Variaudio user interface : to modifie pitch & length upon the wave display. But in Reaper manual, I found this and it really looks like Variaudio UI : I'd like to understand : is Elastique provided with Reaper or must I buy it to have it ? (If I don't make mistake, it's implemented in Reaper 4.76..)

It seems there is a lot of pitch / time correction possibilities in Reaper, I'm sure there is one or two working in real time with an efficient interface (like Variaudio)...?

For the chord generator/builder midi plugin, I was sure there is something equivalent in Reaper.

I'm very curious about the unique track (midi / audio / FX ... ) Does it means that on the same track, I can have audio & midi event ? This would be heaven !!

Thank you vari (audio) much to all of you for your info about Reaper. I'm going to download it and try it in the next days.

yayajohn wrote:
Have you tried the vocoders on the Scope? They're pretty amazing and some great 3rd party one's as well.

What other vocoders are available for SCOPE besides the stock and Celmo's? The better ones of those don't work at 96khz samplerate on XITE-1 so I'm now going to search elsewhere.

Sounddesigner wrote:

yayajohn wrote:
Have you tried the vocoders on the Scope? They're pretty amazing and some great 3rd party one's as well.

What other vocoders are available for SCOPE besides the stock and Celmo's? The better ones of those don't work at 96khz samplerate on XITE-1 so I'm now going to search elsewhere.

Try this link and scroll down to "mono" then "vocoder" http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_14/mra_mast.htm
The 18voice one seems to be dead but the 31voice download's work. I know I got these to work (WinXP 32)but can't confirm whether it was on the Xite-1 side or just the PCI side. I'll be back to my rig tomorrow night though so i'll get back to you on that.
I don't use 96khz so haven't tried it sorry.

JoPo wrote: I'd like to understand : is Elastique provided with Reaper or must I buy it to have it ? (If I don't make mistake, it's implemented in Reaper 4.76..)

Élastique is implemented in Reaper since some time. you don´t have to buy it separately.
It already works in the Reaper "evaluation copy" you want to install before buying reaper.
Everything fully works w/o any restrictions and nothing will expire even you should buy Reaper after 60 days of usage of the evaluation copy.
You can even update w/ that unregistered copy installed,- just only have a nag screen for a few seconds at startup of Reaper.
Actually, I´d use the evaluation copy and learn, than buy Reaper when version 5 is out.
That will be soon I think.

JoPo wrote: It seems there is a lot of pitch / time correction possibilities in Reaper, I'm sure there is one or two working in real time with an efficient interface (like Variaudio)...?

Well, in Reaper´s transport bar there´s also a "playrate" slider ...
I´d say this should be realtime "stretch/pitchshift" already.

I don´t use these features too much, so you better download the small program and install on your machine which is done in a few seconds !!!
The installer has a file tree you open w/ these little (+) icons and while you run the installer you decide what to install,- IIRC, you´d have to select "Élastique" too.
Best is checking all out yourself.

JoPo wrote: For the chord generator/builder midi plugin, I was sure there is something equivalent in Reaper.

Can be, I still have 10 fingers and I´m a keyboardplayer, so I never looked for such plugin in Reaper or elsewhere.
There are a s##tload of JS plugins in Reaper which are excellent and based only on textfiles/script.
That stuff is somewhat different from VST plugins and the users also create plugins all the time.
You´ll find a lot of these in the related JS plugins forum thread too.

JoPo wrote: I'm very curious about the unique track (midi / audio / FX ... ) Does it means that on the same track, I can have audio & midi event ? This would be heaven !!

Yes, exactly,- plus automation etc.,- and you can have track FX (insert and aux) as well as Item-FX in the same track,- for audio and/or MIDI.

Bud

They should change the name Cockos though. Reaper is a great little DAW, it is on it's way to becoming overbloated though.
More fixes than actual updates lately.
But that name...
Sounds like a Cereal with little dicks and Ball shaped pieces floating around in milk.

...and the 'Reaper' bit sounds a bit grim too.

Pffffff !!!

It's REALLY different from Cubase ! After 5 or 6 hours, I begin to make some normal sound !

But I think it's worth it.

I bought the hard copy of the user guide and found it really helpful: http://www.reaper.fm/userguide.php

Sadly no French version for you JoPo, but the English version has lots of screenshots and is quite well written.

yayajohn wrote:

Sounddesigner wrote:

yayajohn wrote:
Have you tried the vocoders on the Scope? They're pretty amazing and some great 3rd party one's as well.

What other vocoders are available for SCOPE besides the stock and Celmo's? The better ones of those don't work at 96khz samplerate on XITE-1 so I'm now going to search elsewhere.

Try this link and scroll down to "mono" then "vocoder" http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_14/mra_mast.htm
The 18voice one seems to be dead but the 31voice download's work. I know I got these to work (WinXP 32)but can't confirm whether it was on the Xite-1 side or just the PCI side. I'll be back to my rig tomorrow night though so i'll get back to you on that.
I don't use 96khz so haven't tried it sorry.

Thanks! The 18 voice however can not be downloaded. I get a message that says "This page can not be displayed". I did download the 31 voices and will try them out later. Hopefully i'll find something that works.

On topic: I tried Reaper a couple times and it never clicked with me. It just was taking me too long to learn how to do the simplist things, the workflow and lay-out of the DAW I just didn't care for despite wanting to due to its routing flexibility and leaness and cpu efficiency. Plus there are things I loved about Sonar that Reaper didn't have a good answer for such as the glorious Step-Sequencer Sonar has. I've had a long love-hate relationship with Cakewalk Sonar/Pro-Audio and every time I try to leave and try another DAW I always come back to Sonar my first love. When it comes to DAW's I'm not so quick to go learn a new one cause it takes me a long time to learn them and with Reaper even longer. Plugins I can get rid of a bit easier and quicker but a DAW that I've been using for years not so much (unless I had to choose between that DAW and SCOPE then of course the DAW would have to go since SCOPE is the true heart of my studio). I ended up believing that once you know a DAW well it's best to stick with it, it's like a marriage you try hard to make it work, there has to be a VERY VERY significant reason for me to move on (wich was the case with Project 5, Ableton live, and Reason many years ago for me). My 2 cents, YMMV.

w_ellis wrote:Sadly no French version for you JoPo, but the English version has lots of screenshots and is quite well written.

No french manual but I found the frnch file to turn Reaper in french and almost all tips are translated.
Anyway, it's in this way (and in forum like here) that I improve my english ! And I love to speak other languages.

I finaly played my Cubase project (with only midi for the moment) exactly the same in Reaper. I stayed 4 hours stucked by routing issue which I still don't understand but now, it ok.
I have to find keyboard shorcuts like I had in Cubase to work faster and some remote control devices and it'll be perfect !

By the way, I have a Spacef Reaper midi remote control but what is the script I have to load in Reaper ?

Oops ! No script needed ! Everything is adjustable from the action / shortcut parameters page. It took me 5 mn. The action list is very impressive : a lot of tweaking time in front of me, j'adore !
I only have to test the midi chord plugin and how to do like in Variaudio and I'll be completly ready.

I'm happy to make those tries and I think I'm going to keep Reaper :
1) the price
2) the huge option number -> huge routing / automation / midi / etc ... possibilities
3) the nice philosophy of Cockos (name of the company ??) and sympathic people on their forum (like here ).
4) the lightness of this DAW : start with heavy kontakt / vtsi project in 1 mn (5 or sometimes 8 with Cubase 5.1)

For the moment, I don't see much negative things.

Glad to see there is something that suits you better, I look forward your experience...

Thanks, Nestor. Yes, it's very pleasant to discover this DAW. Even if sometimes, it's irritating, like when I undo (ctrl+z) an action which delete a track and Kontakt reloads all its libraries I still don't understand why !
I didn't found any curve tool for midi controler to edit either.

But it seems possible to edit 14bit midi control !?!? This would be brilliant !

It's a bit hard to change completly my habits but I believe it's worth it.

Now, I'm concentrating on audio editing...........

Reaper's been around for some years now. I looked at it twice and came back with the same opinion both times. Interesting, but not for me. The fact that it's had all this time to gestate and remains nothing but a curiosity out there in the DAW shadows probably means something. I would classify it more as an entry level (with guts) type DAW. The price is right. But it's lacking in a lot of features and bundles that you get with the more commercial offerings. If none of that matters to you then it's worth considering. I didn't spend more than a day or two investigating it (both times). That was enough for me. Have fun though if you choose to use it regularly. Seems like your choice of DAW is a personal thing that reflects your personality as much as your work ethic.

Interresting point of view. Which DAW do you use ?
For the moment, I'm still discovering it. I don't see much missing feature for the way I build my tracks.
What I like in Reaper is the do-it-yourself side. A bit like Scope.
It seems that to reach a purpose, there is several ways. I like Scope because since 15 years, I still have things to discover and learn.
The pitch shifting as I show in the jpg of this thread doesn't convinced me. So now, I'm going to try another way.

It's true that to change radicaly his way of building DAW music project, there is a high step to cross and I must say that sometimes it's irritating. And it's also true that the ethic and Reaper philosophy are important in my decision to try something else than Cubase. I don't think Reaper is a DAW for beginners (or I'm really crap ).

Steinberg ask me to much money. And I made the mistake to buy Wavelab 7 (a real liquid shit). And those apps become really heavy. If Cubase crashes, I must restart my pc and reload everything -> 10 or 12 mn ; and the idea I had returns where it comes from (I don't know where it is, otherwise, I would bring it back !).

I didn't take my final decision yet, I take advantage of my holidays to make a long test.