PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hello hello,

I'm new to this forum, there's so much info here and it makes me feel damn good that the Scope platform is still alive and kicking so I greet you all.

First let me tell you a little bit 'bout myself so then maybe you know why I post this topic.Sorry for being so enthusiastic.
I have been using a lot of stuff during more than 3 decades.Starting making music on analog synths, Amiga, then Atari, pc and finally landed on the Mac and in the meantime have been using a lot of systems, native and dsp powered.Protools tdm hd, Cubase ... Logic.
Now I am still using Logic with some good analog side gear.
Still I miss the old days where I was more creative cause then the analog synths you were using had really good fat sounds, you didn't need to layer and layer and a lot of fx on top to get a good sound.If your concrete is good you only have to finetune it to get it right and it just fits in the mix. The same with analog side gear, tapedecks and consoles cause it's analog there is no latency so it doesn't make sounds sound thinner and recording in red for a fatter sound makes it creamy sounding.Crosstalk between channels make the sounds interact with each other and not to forget adapt to each other.Energy(sound-analog etc.) is intelligent, it adapts to each other, interacts with each other. It changes and moves over time without any limits.It acts as a 'whole together sound' instead of isolated elements we try to glue together.
Analog creates a synergy while we now live in a world where everything is about isolating elements(pharmacy) but that's not how it works in the nature. Can you image water is intelligent and has a crystal memory.The nature is not stupid.

They say analog has it's limits in dynamics, frequency response etc. like a record cannot go deep and has not an extended frequency response.
It's not true, analog has NO limits and there are still certain things that we cannot measure but it doesn't mean it's not there.
Electrons travel most of the time with the speed of light so any ad/da converter has it's limits while an analog waveform has no steps but an ad/da converter has to measure the voltage values and the higher the bit rate the more different voltage values it can handle and the sample rate says how many meaurements there are made but no matter how high the bit and sample rate, any converter has to do a compromise between two values it measures so it always has to quantize to the nearest value it measured with quantizing errors and ofcourse there are the low and high pass filters filters in the beginning and end of the chain as well and still at the end there will always be latency like the first Yamaha digital mixers you could hear the latency between the first and the last fader and latency defines sound as well that's why a good converter has to has a very good clock like Antelope Audio has for instance.
If you use an acoustical instrument it doesn't have a steep roll off filter at the end or a low pass filter but converters do.

I once remember a friend of mine still using bassdrums from his old Akai sampler, he has a mastering studio in Istanbul.They still sound fatter and better than new stuff so he compared two bassdrums(Akai and new stuff) by measuring it with a professional audio analyzer. The analyzer showed the same by both bassdrums but there is a difference in sound so there is something which it can't measure that's clear.
I had once set up my farfields on a party, you may call me crazy but then a guy came and said please play this cd,this RnB track has such a deep base so I played it and I said huh that's nothing until you listen to this old skool hip hop 12" vinyl track. He was totally knocked of his feet. He said how's possible a record so much deeper so from then on he kept coming back everyday just to ask can you please play that record for me again.
Our hearing is not limited from 18 Hz to 20 Khz, that's not true. We still believe it cause these tests are still tests from the Bell laboratories where they had a certain measurement limit.We don't only hear with our ears, it's a cooperation between more parts of our body.We listen with our eyes, brain, bones, skin and ears and yes we can hear 2 or 3 hz deep sounds(driving with an open window, beach window open) and 150 Khz as well.Muted trumpet harmonics extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash is still strong at 100 kHz or more some things reaching 150 Khz. It's hard to measure above 150 Khz because of measurement mic limits.Many filters cut under those frequencies and that makes a difference.
Our body is so sensitive that we can perceive many many different pressure differences and yes even mp3 files contain many frequencies below 18 hz.This is why in my opinion good end amps or speakers or mic pres you just mention it have extremely wide extended frequency responses.
I can't write and bother you with a too long text so about this I stop writing but one thing is sure that dsp powered systems realy sound better because of:
- less latency.
-A dsp processor is only dedicated to one task
-As a developer you just know for which dsp you have to code your plug-in while with native systems you have to support many many processors from Amd and Intel so you always have limits and have to do compromises like a Formula one car is built for the track and cannot perform in a desert and a jeep cannot perform on the race track.Each are perfectly tailored for one special task.A dsp powered system is like a formula one car and a native system is like an mpv which can do both but will never be a winner in a desert neither on a race track.

Two days ago I was listening to some tracks mixed down on my Protools hdx tdm system with tdm plugins(1999-2000)
Protools audio converters, fx and processing tdm plugins, drums Akai S6000, bass Yamaha Fs1r and so on.I was shocked how analog sounding and breathing the mix was, very snappy snares and deep bassdrums and the mix was moving and changing all the time, not static. What can you expect tdm plugins for fx and processing and synhts, samplers are dsp modules as well so almost no latency and good converters. It realy makes a difference that I can say still today with my logic native system and the best and newest native plugins I even cannot get near to that old Protools sound and I'm not even talking about Scope which is much better.

Look I'm a big fan of Scope for many years, started from mid nineties and their possibilities and sound are the closest to analog sound on this planet I'm telling you.The non scope users might think their systems are better cause they are all being fooled by the marketing propoganda of the other systems.Those soft and hardware companies are improving since years and years but in my opinion it's a big lie cause still for instance an average 15 years old Creamware pulsar2 card outperforms a good maudio card on all fronts.Latency, built quality, sound you just mention it and all those plugins are still unrivaled and I have been testing almost 2000 AU native plugins believe me so how come that they are talking about improvements????
I am still using my almost 25 years old La audio mic pre channel strip, it outperforms many of the new kids on the block cause it's real quality and no marketing bullshit.The same with my ribbon farfields and it's amps from 1995.They outperform many big boys from now so.

The mixer in sonic core is so good and xite1 is still the best on all fronts.It's still one of the only products which really does what its specs say on paper.Everybody can put some specs on paper but in reality they don't even come close and xite1's internal bus is 80 bit.Correct me if I'm wrong so enough headroom to emulate analog stuff and plenty of dynamics and less errors .......

My dream:
Don't know when Scope 6 will be released, I know it's a very complex system to program but I hope they will implement:
- A DAW supporting apple loops and pitch and time warp on the fly (Ableton) so I can keep on using my old Apple library
-good audio editing and midi support.
-Keyboard arranger like functions
-Video support
-Cross platform support with Linux as well, maybe I might drop Osx, Apple is becoming arrogant
-Looping station plug-in
-Full controller support
-Real microtuning support

Oh man I tell you I will immiadetly stop using Logic and use only Scope as my workhorse to do literally everything coupled with some analog side gear and controllers like Mackie.
Arranging, producing, editing, restoration, mastering and the list goes on while cascading two xite1's.

Why not let Sonic core develop a creative controller, tailor made for Scope like Machine.
Scope forever.Scope rules.


Thanks for reading my post.
Peace to all the Scope family members out there.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your thoughts!


By the way, did you see Peter's new Channel Strip device with integrated crosstalk feature?

sunmachine wrote:Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your thoughts!


By the way, did you see Peter's new Channel Strip device with integrated crosstalk feature?

Oh my god no.

Where can I find it?


Thanks.

It's here: http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33778
And a here you'll find a mini manual: http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33782

sunmachine wrote:It's here: http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33778
And a here you'll find a mini manual: http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33782

Thanks again

Regards a Scope powered DAW, there was a project called Parseq a few years back to that end which never saw the light of day. Maybe I'm wrong and it will come back, but I always thought that may be too ambitious.

So I have suggested a Mixbus scenario which would just be a multitrack playback and mix system but with DSP plugin channel strip components which could have classic alternatives sold in the SC shop. The summing engine could be either native or DSP

I guess this would be a bit like bringing back XTC mode but in a more focused manner with an SC proprietary plugin wrapper replacing the VST baggage/overhead.

It's a tough call to take on and reinvent the complete DAW market - too many years head start on functionality. But a Scope powered Stem Mixer would be a lot lighter on development requirements. And if it was a partnership with Harrison, even better - as getting a name on board we have seen helps plugin sales immensely.

So there's an opportunity to create/capture a boutique mix market which could become even wider - and if sales are good - add functionality by demand - such as an interchange file format or even streaming or automation etc.

Welcome aboard mate. Look forward to having you around! I'm sure you'll find this forum most informed, congenial and enthusiastic!

dante wrote:Regards a Scope powered DAW, there was a project called Parseq a few years back to that end which never saw the light of day. Maybe I'm wrong and it will come back, but I always thought that may be too ambitious.

Yeah I read about Parseq, hope it is still in the pipeline.

So I have suggested a Mixbus scenario which would just be a multitrack playback and mix system but with DSP plugin channel strip components which could have classic alternatives sold in the SC shop. The summing engine could be either native or DSP

Hope everything will be dsp powered but with support of VST, AAX, AU and Lapsda so that we can choose to use native things like orchestra plugins or other loop or audio based plugins.

I guess this would be a bit like bringing back XTC mode but in a more focused manner with an SC proprietary plugin wrapper replacing the VST baggage/overhead.

It's a tough call to take on and reinvent the complete DAW market - too many years head start on functionality. But a Scope powered Stem Mixer would be a lot lighter on development requirements. And if it was a partnership with Harrison, even better - as getting a name on board we have seen helps plugin sales immensely.

You're right but you know today we have so many plugins and so many functions in our daws but still a lot we don't use and in my opinion quality is important instead of quantity. I remember that I used to work with samplers with MB's of ram and loading samples from floppy and now I have an audio sound library with hundreds of thousands of sounds, many many plugins and synths with mannnnnnnnnnnnnny presets.I get confused. A good small set up with some good stuff which does what it promises is more useable. Now most of the plugins I don't even use cause they're not good quality.

So there's an opportunity to create/capture a boutique mix market which could become even wider - and if sales are good - add functionality by demand - such as an interchange file format or even streaming or automation etc.

Sounds good, sorry for the bad colors

ronnie wrote:Welcome aboard mate. Look forward to having you around! I'm sure you'll find this forum most informed, congenial and enthusiastic!

Ronnie thanks.Nice to be on this forum.

you can use vsti or other plugs through asio you just need to use a host program i use vstihost there is also a single version which you can create any plug into being a auto vsti with out daw called savihost i use them all the time and with asio you can choose the asio i/o per savi host device or run vstihost and run several plugs in that with different midi channels and asio i/o

i use this set up all the time with my scopes systems which are connected to a mac via adat using logic and they are triggered by midi as an external device

there are other host programs also for aax but dont see the point in using aax if you dont have protools software or dsp hardware as the vsti version is the same the aax version is used for the protools daw and most protool users i know just use the dsp cards and run logic as there daw and use the aax with the protools hardware

as for au as scope is still just pc theres no need for au support as there is always a vsti version of the same software and i can tell you this that most plugs are created on pc then ported to au arturia is more processor hungry on the mac than the pc

same for a lot of plugs

using native plugs has always been possible in fact scope had giga format way before many others and still does asio allows many inputs so these vsti today dont need a daw for them to work look up vstihost

xtc mode was for scope plugins only so that they could be seen in a daw with out starting scope up and have a visual gui from the daw but you can accomplish this with out xtc mode by having 2 monitor screens you can have scope on one and daw onn the other and use the sequencer midi i/o in scope which is seen in the daw software you can then create ctrlr panels as vsti control elements to use inside daw we did this a few years back for bcmodular

Haydarpasa I agree with much of what you wrote. Native seem to always be getting better but never quite get there IMV. The more people scream from roof tops on how great Native is the more I'm convinced they don't even believe this themselves. A lot of wishfull thinking and hype comes with every new generation of Native plugins wich are quickly forgotten the next generation, but many SCOPERS have been loving the same plugins for many years simply cause those SCOPE plugins were built right from the start, they were not 'all sizzle but no steak' like what Native usually is. Many brag about $50 Native plugins and try to say they are as good as dsp but truthfully would they buy that Native plugin if it costed $300 plus was attatched to a $1500 dsp card or dongle? When you truly have to make a huge payment and sacrifice for gear you become more analytical and picky and you are taken out of 'no-brainer-mode'. Until there is a huge cost for those Native plugins there is no true comparison with dsp. Many companies tried to swim with the SHARCs but did not survive, I mean there was many other dsp platforms that are no longer here and some were by Native companies such as SSL duende and Waves APA, but when people have to pay a lot for your products they may not judge it as worth it thus your product may not survive and many have not survived (TC Powercore, Korg, Oasis, duende, APA, etc all deceased). Until Native developers put their products on a expensive dsp card/dongle and raise the price they don't compete with dsp because no one is really willing to make a huge sacrifice for their products and they know it, if they believed people loved their products enough to make huge sacrifice then you'd see more higher prices and more dsp platforms. Native prices have been lowering over time while UAD prices generally increase and SCOPE still demands a huge sacrifice (but is a bargain to the saavy). Native companies do want dsp money that is why so many of them jumped on the bandwagon of dsp companies like UAD and code their plugins for its platform and after failure Waves is trying co-processing again with their Soundgrid platform. The software world is depreciating over time and consumers pay less and less for it. The real money is in hardware sells that go with software sales wich is what dsp companies do. UAD has proven to be king cause it has proven that the market sees their products as high-end cause the market is willing to pay exhorbitant prices for their products wich the market would not do for Native or better stated nearly all other developers and has rejected other developers attempts at high prices and dsp platform attampts. Swimming in Native world with just a website and no employees and no manufacturing costs is not the same as swimming with the SHARCs were it's a lot tuffer to survive cause consummers truly have to love your products before making huge investments in cash.

People place their vote when they spend their dollars, until a Native developer adds greater cost and hardware to their products then technically they don't compete with DSP. Their products aren't in the same market and class so its not a valid comparison when Native fanboys make it. Sometimes there is a very vocal minority that make products seem better than what they are but I've heard the crying of too many big name Native developers over the years complaining about how little money they actually were making (despite all the hype).

I know whenever I have to put up a huge cost for gear I will put a lot of thought and consideration into it and would not buy it unless the product will bring significant improvement in sound and workflow, and I have to truly see that product with a huge cost as head-and-shoulders above the rest, or why make the investment when the job can be done just as good with freeware or cheaper Native options? Because I started with the old 6 dsp SCOPE PCI card the XITE-1 was pretty much a no-brainer for me and worth more than its high price. Over the years I've given the SCOPE platform a lot of thought and believe its better on almost all fronts than other options and very significantly better overall to me and I would hate to be without SCOPE cause there is no real replacement and nothing is better to me. SCOPE has been swimming in the deep waters with the SHARCs and surviving in dsp world for almost 20 years now and Sonic Core has been here running a company (not just a spare-time website from a one-man-show.) for about 8 years now, and Sonic Core is doing this during the freeware, Pirate-ware, low-budget-ware, i7 computer era. And they are still here because some people see their products as worth it! Just my 2 cents.

EDITED

Forgot to say, welcome aboard!

SoundDesigner, I agree that DSP plugins sound better than Native on a one to one comparison, however, comparing a full native mix mastered in Scope to a Scope mix mastered in Scope I'm not sure that same differential is there.

If you can mix in Native and master in Scope and still get a killer mix with the same mastering plugins running in Scope, theres no ongoing sustainability saleswise.

Scope needs to go head to head against Native where Native is winning rather than rely on where Scope is already winning (but making no plugin sales).

Regards synths, a similar thing is happening. Theres no native replacement for the best Scope synth sounds (eg for my mind, proTone and ProWave), however, Native is capturing a market for new sounds that don't exist in Scope.

good points.

native mixes don't compare.
they can be more than good enough, anyway.

I like to use Cantabile as a VST host. There are both 64 and 32 bit versions and multi-core is tweakable. (For 64 bit VSTs on the 32 bit version it uses JBridge). You can have audio tracks in it as well. In Sonar I like to automate MIDI controllers to control the Scope Mixers and Effects for mixing down and mastering through Scope; the native DAWs are great for that using MIDI controllers. I'm using strictly Scope ASIO 2-32 Source 64 drivers. Cantabile and Sonar of course can route to the ADAT, etc., and have multiple routes and have MIDI filtering and reassignments as well so a lot can be done in the DAW for control and if you like some native synths and effects those are icing on the Scope cake!

dante wrote:
Scope needs to go head to head against Native where Native is winning rather than rely on where Scope is already winning (but making no plugin sales).

You may be right in this above quote Dante but i also know that sometimes it's just slow development that hurts a company. Some people are'nt aware of SCOPE and some assume it's dead due to lack of advertisement wich is due to lack of new software releases for SCOPE. Sometimes it's just slow development that hurts a company. UA knows this that's why they give the illusion of fast development with their more shiny shiny plugins approach and slowly add core-platform-functionality over the years while Sonic Core does the opposite and focus more on core-platform-functionality and then wider variety of plugins. Sonic Core takes the longer more difficult path that leads to a better and more sophisticated and complete platform but is'nt the more profitable approach.. Apart from faster development it's a little too difficult for me to say what Sonic Core needs simply cause they have not released their own platform yet to show whether their way will work or not. Open-SCOPE, SCOPE 6, Parseq, etc has alot of great ideas and is well thought out and might be enough to cause a snowball effect, like when you roll it down a hill and it gets bigger and bigger, meaning more and more users and developers continue to get on board as time passes.

Beating Native at some of its games like more unique and sophisticated sounds seems good but beating Native in other games like more and more desparately low-prices is a game Native should play alone. Native developers is on a race to the bottom, as prices drop and the Native world gets more crowded. I've heard too many Native developers complaining about the money being made on the Native platform in some way shape or fashion over the years (I'm not saying all are unsuccessfull just saying it's extremely tuff to survive in Native world as well, and from what I gather few can make a full-time good paying job from developing Native plugins or hire employees). As better sounding Native plugins get cheaper it becomes more difficult to sustain in the race to the bottom as well.

The race to the bottom is still a market. If there's no money in it and SC choose not to compete, that's OK. I'm just trying to come up with ideas where the market may not be fully exhausted. Which seem valid in a topic called 'wishlist'

On my system, native mixes do compare with Scope mixes - but this I qualify as follows :

1) As long as mastered through Scope. I cant get mixes to sound as good by using Native mastering.
2) It may also be related to the fact I'm doing these mixes @96KHz - which I am unable to do or test on Scope.

I mix out of Samplitude THROUGH Scope plugins, and back into Samplitude.
...and Samplitude's native plugins are pretty damn good.

Call me a heretic.

Greg